#3DS&Pentium
35 messages in this thread
Before I recommend to my firm that they buy a Gateway 2000 Pentium machine, is
there any likelyhood of glitches whilst running 3DS vers2?
-D.G.
I've gone through a couple of Pentium boxes. My advice is to wait another
couple of months. It won't hurt and you won't be sorry. Stick to a good 66 VLB
for now.
If I get one of Gateway's latest, what should I get in terms of a video card?
Are their video cards acceptable for 3DS, or would I be a lot better off
replacing the one they supply?
We recently bought a few GW 66dx2 systems with Diamond Viper boards – nice. I
believe 3DSr3 will ship with [Vibrant?] drivers that support a large number of
adapters.
Eli
Gus,
Have you tried the Compaq Pentium w/TriFlex architecture? Near as I can
figure, everybody else's system (except maybe what Intel starts manufacturing
for all the lazy vendors) are only 32-bit in the rest of the Architecture, not
optimized at all for the Pentium's 64-bit. I haven't heard anything specific
regarding Gateway, although one of my customers has some on order (somewhat
against my better (?) judgement).
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
From what I understand from beta-testers, the Compaq pentium based machine is
still suffering from problems. I don't know details, but I know I was advised
not to buy it at this point from three people who've put them through their
paces.
Regards,
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
We have test the Compaq 5/60 intensively with Windows 3.1, OS/2, NT,
3DStudioR2, Photoshop, Painter, Excel, WinWord, WP for Windows,
Access, dBase and a neverending list of commercial programs,
shareware, freeware and our Pentium compiled testbed. This computer
is as powerful as the soviet rocket Energy, and as solid as he
basement of the WTC twin towers at New York 🙂 It outperforms the
Dell, the HP and the IBM pentiums anytime (which also has been
tested). And the Compaq was the _first_ model that arrives to Compaq
Spain. It doesn't have the Compaq logo on it! From my experience with
the computer, I don't have to tell you what two workstations will be
on the studio in a couple of weeks 🙂
That's a good point Ana. Now I remember when you were going through
testing the Compaq's. This brings a question I always had, why is it
that magazines reviews never tell what we need to know? Everytime I
see a comparison review of a bunch of different "anything" in a
magazine, the points they bring for comparing are always "pointless".
They always compare details that don't make any sense. When comparing
CPU's why would I care how fast or how slow is the hard disk access?
Assuming you can put whatever you want, from a 10M Tandom MFM hard
disk (XT's original) to a fast gigabyte SCSI-II using a 32 bit bus
mastering controller. It's also good to point out that you never get
the system that goes to the magazine for review. That's the $20,000
version of the $2,000 system you receive via UPS…
As far as I can tell, these el'cheapo Pentiums that are poping up all
over the place are nothing else than biffed up 486's. I don't see any
problem with it if the price is right. But it does smell like the
first 386/16 that came into play back in 87. After about 6 months
there was nothing to do with those machines. The big difference was
that when they first showed up, you were expected to shell out 10g's
for a 2M unit (with an 80M RLL hard disk)!
Compaq's are all right as they are rugged machines and so forth. But
they also cost almost three times everybody else. They tend to have
too many proprietary stuff and you kind off get stuck with them
(lesson learned from big'ol blues).
The problem with being in the leading edge of all this is that you are
the first one to get your face smacked in the wall when the wave hits
the shore.
I know about other magazines, and I know about PC Actual. Our
philosophy is oriented to the real user, and our tests are based in
real applications. While other people, like PC Magazine or Byte
(which are BIG companies) are starting to make "Real World" tests, we
have been doing it for years. I don't know what you understand with
"reviews never tell what we need to know", but for sure, you never
have read PC Actual, because it's national level and therefore,
althought it is owned by one of the major editorial and mass media
groups in the world, we don't have international projection. I can
assure you that our reviews are pretty oriented to the user and very
different from PC Mag and others. We have guides of analisys that our
readers, which gone from computer science students -in fact, we are
the first in the list in that population segment (PC Magazine, PC
World and Byte/Binary are a lot behind)- to the typical company and
professionals. We (must) care about prices, technical issues and real
world apps. I tell you that our point of view about information is a
lot different from the major computer mags in the world. And that is
the key for our success.
Here's my view about Compaq:
I will go Compaq because I know that, althought expensive (not that
expensive if you know how to do it :), it is a GREAT machine. I have
read a lot of tech info from Compaq on the Triflex architecture since
the first SystemPro equiped with that technology. Furthermore, I not
only have read about it, but experience it (whith abstract numbers
-CPU performance, HD subsystem, etc…- and with real world apps, as
real as 3dsr2 and Photoshop times). As I have said before: fast and
solid. The Triflex architecture, althought propietary, is a lot
flexible. And take all the power from the Pentium machine. I think
Compaq is a solid bet for today. Regarding the price, you have to see
it overall: get a Pentium for a cheap price, it's ok! later will come
the real price 🙂 It's the transaction cost, as well as the final
cost what you have to take in mind.
Also, you don't have to buy the entire machine. I have enough
monitors, enough graphics boards, etc… In fact, I'm going to buy
just the boxes, with the CPU board and 64MB and 32MB of RAM, and the
minimun IDE hard drive they have. I will put an Adaptec (compatible),
SCSI HD, and the rest of the system for different and "selected"
brands. I like the Triflex architecture and want to have a flexible
system, but I don't want to buy the full box form Compaq. I don't
like their propietary SCSIs, neither their QVisions nor their 21"
monitors. Later when I need more RAM, I will add the triflex
propietary memory board (from any mail store), and start to charge it
with 32MB SIMMs (but that will be after a long time <g>)
So why to spend in a generic motherboard, put it in a case and add all
the good components. I prefer to spend a little more in a great base
to start from. Then add the good components and then have a fast,
solid and reliable computer optimized for my needs.
Sorry Ana, I have never had a chance of reading PC Actual. When I
complain about reviews, I'm basing myself in Mr. William Bernard
Ziff's publications. They are so biased and blatantly stupid that
makes me sick. The worse is that all I'm doing is helping his $1.5
billion bank account grow larger…
I know Gus. I only try to explain our point of view. Believe me, I don't have
any simpathy for the PC Magazine reviews. They don't have biased reviews. They
have The Biased Reviews <g>
And don't mention Dvorak, please (arrrrrgghhhh) <g>
ana /krazy images
The Compaq Pentiums have apparently been looked at by SGI, and
is the only implementation they seemed to feel worthy of a competiive
analysis. Compaq is trying to differentiate itself over the other PC
vendors through the TriFlex architecture, designed for the 64-bit
Pentium, rather than a 32-bit approach which can accept Pentium. I
think the SPEC performance is close to SGI's Indy, but Kornerstones's
are less than 1/4 of the Indy.
Kevin,
What are kornerstones? Are they FP or memory intensive?
Remember, the base "$4,995" Indy comes with an R4000PC, which has
about the same interger performance as the 486DX2/66 and about half
the fp performance of the pentium. To get pentium class (actually,
slightly better than pentium) performance, you have to get the full
blown R4000(SC?) Indy, which costs more. I'm going by SpecInt and
SpecFP for the performance comparisons.
To get significantly better than pentium performance, you have to go
with the R4400, which is available only on the higher end Indigos,
and I think the R4400 Indigo2 was delayed (it may be out now
though). These machines cost about $35,000 and up machines, so they
are really just a dream for us mortals.
Also, the "$4,995" Indy comes with no hard disk, a 15" 1024×768
monitor with a 2D graphics board that's "virtual 24bit" meaning it
does really gross-looking dithering on solid fills. I've seen this
on the base Indigo and I hate it. It looks ok on flat shaded stuff
in the Iris Inventor demo but makes my stomach turn on the morph
demo. I'll take true 24bit or even 16bit color any day.
I would guess that a decent Indy, one with the real 24bit graphics,
the real R4000(SC?), a gig hard disk, 32 megabytes, and a 19" monitor
would cost over $16,000. You could get two like-equipped Compaq
pentiums for this price.
Bailey,
You're correct, I was speaking of the R4000SC (which is with 1M
secondary cache). SPECint92 is 57, SPECfp92 is 61, 14 MFLOPS, 89 DhryMIPS.
Khornerstone (Compaq: 33,562; R4000SC: 141,238) is a result of 21 tests that
stress CPU, FPU and disk subsystem. With SPEC, the Compaq is actually slightly
better on integer, Indy better on Float. I'm actually not that fond of the
Indy, though I think it will have a place as a network workstation, and
primarily 2D imaging (AutoCAD, XAOS Tools, Eclipse, etc.). We have an Indigo2
w/Extreme graphics, R4000 for now, w/96M & 1 Gig. I think the R4400 are
delivering starting November.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
<<We have an Indigo2 w/Extreme graphics…>>>
Hey nice machine! I am looking at SGIs myself. I am sure it must
take a LOT of geometry to slow down the Indigo2's 8 geometry engines,
do you have any idea how well some of the others perform (i.e. Indigo
R4000 XZ, or Elan)? I've seen some of these in action but still have
no idea how large a model they can handle before rotations etc. slow
down. Are you an SGI dealer?
No I have not "directly" worked with the Compaq Pentium box. I have
had, however, some fun (read it as in sarcasm) with one up at Adesk
QA lab. For some funky reason it didn't do what I wanted it to do and
then, all of the sudden, it started to behave itself without any
change anywhere! Go figure. Based on that, the only thing I can think
of it is that they are "moody".
I have no clue what this Gateway is going to be like but it would be
prudent to wait at least a couple of weeks before getting one. Comdex
promises a lot of hot new machines.
Gus,
>> Comdex promises a lot of hot new machines. <<
Yeah, and rarely delivers. Since I've cut back to once every 2 years
lately, not sure if I'll go.
You are right. The point is that if you see your competitor showing up
with something better and cheaper, it's likely you're going to do
something about it. That's what I look forward after Comdex.
The performance of Pentium machines is going to be all over the range.
I suspect that you'll essentiall pay for what you get. (But not
necessarily get what you pay for.)
I should be able to give you all a technical dump Re: the Compaq Pentium. I
have an eval that should go on-line in the Lab this week. I had them max it out
with 128mb of RAM, fastest hard drive they have and so on. I plan not only to
test 3D Studio, but Windows (and NT) as well.
I'm evaling hardware for next year, I hope I can convince Gateway to
send me over an eval. I'll tell you this, the memory costs more than
the box! (big shock) $12k for the memory, $5.5k for the box. <sigh>
With Gateway selling Pentiums for $3.5k the Compaq is going to have to
be $2k faster, that's for sure.
Think of price/value in a different way: What if you had to
bring in another machine to make up the difference in performance?
Another machine is going to require you also provide the memory,
local hard disk, etc.
Well for $2k, you buy much for sure but when you start looking at stocking a
'render farm' and you're purchasing 10 machines, suddenly it becomes a $20k
difference.
With $20k extra to spend I could add an additional 5 machines (more or less).
I think that could make up any possible speed diff.
Anyway, that's the way I have to look at it. (mo power!)
Jamie
Autodesk, IDL
I happened to speak with Gateway this weekend. Their box is a dual 32
bit bus. Dell (I also spoke with them), and I believe Compaq are
using a full 64 bit bus for thier Pentiums. Much more expensive
though and I don't know how much additional speed you get out of it
for the money. AMBRA said they have a 64 bit bus but I am not sure I
trust that statement since their price is in line with the other 32
bit systems out there. That was a quote from their salesperson
though. I was also told ALR was a 64 bit system but hadn't called to
confirm that.
Hey GUS G(uru) of U(nusable) S(ystems),
>>…gone thru a couple of Pentium boxes…
Your advice to don't by no stinking Pentium today caught my eye along
with another comment about Intel's PCI chipset. I was ready to order
a Gateway Pentium (Intel MB) tomorrow, but, yikes!, maybe I'd better
do some more research.
More curious than a cat: which Pentium boxes (can you say?) did you
reject? What kind of problems? Do you know things about the Intel
motherboard that Gateway is using? Thanks.
JKJ (charter member of AGFA: the Ask Grubba For Advice club)
AGFA Gevaert, you must be at least as old as I am to know about that!
I know nothing about Gateway's Pentium box. But, if the board inside
is Intel, it must be the thing I have here. I treat it as a big 486.
It works, that's about as much as you want to know I guess. I've
heard about some problems with Intel's version of local bus (PCI) but
I haven't seen anything. Probably because I have never seen a PCI
anything! You would want to have at least a video board sitting
there. I've also "played" with a "VEISA" pentium box. Speedy demon.
Awfully expensive though. These prices will have to come down once
the production numbers reach the normal level. This should be within
a couple of weeks or beginning of next year at the latest.
>>[Intel board:] It works…
That's usually all anyone needs to know! I'm looking for another
machine primarily for enhanced render fun.
Gateway's Pentium is advertised with a PCI version of the ATI Ultra
XLR graphics board. If that has problems, I could probably
substitute another board (but with only 5 ISA slots…) They also
have a 30-day "send it back" policy.
Off-the-subject section:
Hey, a month or so ago I did some images to simulate a robotic vision
system for some people where I work. Their show-&-tell went so well
they want to do some follow-on work and make a more sophisticated
simulation by integrating robot motion control with image generation
software. I told them about IPAS and they may try to "twist my arm"
<g> and get me to develop the thing. So, I might be getting into
IPAS sooner than I thought! Promise you won't go away. <g> Hmm,
maybe I should send a retainer fee…
I'm working with something similar. Totally unrelated to top secret
robots taking over foreign governments, but it also involves motion
control and robotics. We may want to talk about it.
As far as the Gateway Pentium goes, the price looks right. I just read
an article in PC Week about these second tear manufacturers profiting
of Intel's goofing around the PCI architecture (although the fact
that this Gateway is based around the same PCI makes no sense to me).
Regardless, this all means that Pentiums are going to be hitting the
market stronger, cheaper and sooner than expected. Wait another
couple of weeks if you can though…
By the way, the 30-day back thing. When do they start counting it?
When you order it? If it is, make sure they deliver the machine
before that time is expired!!! It may take them well over 30 days to
start shipping the thing.
Seeing as how there is still alot ot minor problems to be worked out
with the architecture of the mother boards for the Pentium, why not
look into some of the multiple 486 chip boards out there. You get
the reliability of the 486 architecture and the speed of multiple
processors for the same price of the new and risky pentium boards.
My $.02 worth
Interesting point. I've seen adds for this VTech machine with 2 or 4
486's and for a reasonable price. The question is, would DOS benefit
in any way of the second (or third, fourth…) CPU? I can't see how.
So far the only thing able to make use of multiple CPU's is NT.
J.Dvorak says "YOU HAVE FORGET THE SMP OS/2, PATHETIC MICROSOFT
ACOLYTE!!!" (you know, Gus, tell the complete truth or "Boris"
the-press-monster-from-the-BLUE-castle will take you by Halloween
night <G>).
According to an article I read in last month's Computer Shopper, dos
and any dos based program will benifit from the speed of multiply
processors, but there is a point of deminishing returns. For the type
of archictecture to use multiply processors under dos, their is one
"main" cpu that hands out the tasks to each other cpu but at a cost
of using up part of the main cpu to a point were the system can
actually slow down. Where that point is, is the question? But I
assume one would run out of money before getting to that point.
If your interested in a more depth and precise explanation do some
research in either Sept. or August's issue of Computer Shopper. I
just don't have the room to keep those huge mag.s around.
I will take a look at. Unless they've come up with a super bios, there
is no way that can work for DOS.
DOS is stupid as it can be. It is nothing else than a biffed up CP/M
OS with no regards whatsoever for parallel processing. In fact, to
make any use, not only the OS must be aware but the application
running must be compiled with a compiler that would make use of
parallel processing.
A good example is Microway's Quadputers. In fact I wonder what would
be compiling 3DS with Microway C running in a machine with 16 i860's!
It shouldn't be that hard as all user interface junk is still handled
by the 486 in the host. Just the math intensive stuff is done with
the i860's. That's about 1 gigaflops! It would render phong in real
time! And still cost a fraction of a comparable SGI…
Well, just dreaming I guess…
Nice dream, Gus…-:)
What could be the cost of such a dream? I mean, could the Yost Group
buy the thing, the compiler and all, and take out a Quadputer version
of 3ds or there are more millions of dollars in developing (like the
realtime drivers? 🙂 Do you know what is the cost of this Quadputers
units? I have read that new Topas support this i860 units (I don't
know if Microway or what, probably it only support the Horizon i860)?
The cost of the unit is around $12k. The cost of development depends
on how the thing is done. I don't know 3DS code (that well) and I
would be just "gussing". I would assume the stuff is laid out in
fairly separate modules and some of them (the ones we care) would be
ported to the i860 rather easily. There are, however, too many
variables involved. For instance, the relationship between PharLap's
DOS extender and that thing. Topas uses Intel's Code Builder (as
opposed to PharLap) and it handle these things in a different manner.
All assembly code (if any) would have to be ported at a high cost
(all C code should be able to be ported rather easily). If they plan
on porting 3DS to anything (NT for instance) most of these issues are
going to be dealt with any way. For something like NT, the main
problem (I would think) would be the user interface. That would have
to be re-written from scratch. For parallel systems like the
quadputer, the UI stays untouched as it will be running using the
host CPU (the 486 in this case) without any change. This is a fun
project just to think about it…
Gary is the guy to answer that question but then, we get stuck in the
"non disclosure" of anything Autodesk might or might not do!