GVP/EGS Opinion/Problems
10 messages in this thread
Gary,
I hate to intrude on your weekend with these questions, but I just got
my Spectrum board up and running friday evening, and GVP tech support
won't be back until monday morning (this of course assumes that you will
be logging on this weekend)…
I think I have a busted Buster problem. I found that I could not
get my 2MB Spectrum board to display an 800x600x24 screen from my
A3000/25 (12 MB fast RAM) onto my A1950 monitor! I also had problems
with an 800x600x8 WB clone – it took over two minutes to redraw a
screen with a few windows! I opened up my A3000 and switched the
jumper to force it to Zorro II mode. The good news is that I am now
able to bring up an 800x600x24 board, the bad news is that the screen
flickers significantly! Another bit of bad news is that the
EGS_Workbench at 8 bits deep is FAR TOO SLOW for me, to be useful to
me (although the 800x600x3 is very nice, and I will be "test driving"
the 1024×768 mode, which should be nice!). I seem to have a
translucent pointer also (any idea why that seems to be happening?).
Using left-Amiga m to shuffle thru both EGS AND native Amiga screens
is a nice programming touch. It's a shame that the screen flipping
gadgets will only work to flip EITHER native Amiga screens or EGS
screens, but not both. I used to use my three button's middle button
to flip thru all my screens – it would be nice if this feature were
available <hint><hint>. BTW, are there any files/docs available for
users to write EGS compliant code??????
I never realized how much I'd miss PowerSnap, but obviously it won't
work on a non-native screen (perhaps another utility program you might
consider for EGS).
I'd really like to know if any of my problems are related to my busted
Buster problems (what exactly are the signs and symptoms of EGS' DMA
problems with a busted A3000????). Is it my monitor, my CPU, my humidity,
my barometric pressure??? Is there any way to speed up that workbench
clone so that I can have the 256 colors I thought I'd have??? Will the
800x600x24 screen still flicker as much if I find and replace my olde
Buster with revision 11 (that's the latest one, right?)
I'd appreciate any help with these problems. I still have a lot to
look at with this package. Not to mention the monitor setting adjustments
mentioned at the back of the docs.
BTW, when/if I update to the latest Buster, I htink I'm gonna put in
that last 4MB ZIP (this thing loves fast ram)!
Spectrum is an intriguing graphics board! Definitely a product where
reading the docs is recommended!
// ** Commodore **
\X/ -The Bosnia of Computer Companies- -RSL-
Roy,
have you tried PowerSnap2? It works fine here on my Retina in WB
emulation mode. By all rights, it shouldn't, but it does.
PowerSNAP works on the machines tested here with the Workbench driver.
However, it does not work on native EGS screens… 😉
Brian,
Right now, I have PowerSnap 2.1b running. It sorta works (well, maybe
20% of the time). It MAY be a manner of tweaking the choice of system
fonts. This board requires an investment of some time to "get it right!"
// ** Commodore **
\X/ -The Bosnia of Computer Companies- -RSL-
"I think I have a busted Buster problem. I found that I could not get my 2MB
Spectrum board to display an 800x600x24 screen from my A3000/25 (12MB fast RAM)
onto my A1950 monitor! I also had problems with an 800x600x8WB clone – it took
over two minutes to redraw a screen with a few windows!"
Hmmm, flickering screens should not be related to the Buster chip… Buster
would cause the screen to break up or have chunks missing from it, but not
flicker. Check to make sure that you selected the correct monitor for EGS to
generate displays for. Go into DisplayAdjust and look in the lower-left box
that lists monitors and make sure it lists the monitor you are using.
800x600x24 is rock-solid on a 1950 and 1960 monitor, so these and anything
better than them should be rock-solid.
"I opened up my A3000 and switched the jumper to force it to Zorro II mode.
The good news is that I am now able to bring up an 800x600x24 board, the bad
news is that the screen flickers significantly! "
Again, this may be related to a monitor setting…?
"Another bit of bad news is that the EGS_Workbench at 8 bits deep is FAR TOO
SLOW for me, to be useful to me (although the 800x600x3 is very nice, and I
will be "test driving" the 1024×768 mode, which should be nice!)."
This is probably related to the Zorro-II mode; Zorro-III is much faster.
"I seem to have a translucent pointer also (any idea why that seems to be
happening?)."
The VGA graphics chip has a transparent hardware sprite (cursor)… After you
get used to it, it looks really neat!
"Using left-Amiga m to shuffle thru both EGS AND native Amiga screens is a nice
programming touch. It's a shame that the screen flipping gadgets will only
work to flip EITHER native Amiga screens or EGS screens, but not both."
Adding Amiga-M was easy enough (it's a hotkey in the input stream), but hacking
gadgets is a bit more system-unfriendly…
"I used to use my three button's middle button to flip thru all my screens – it
would be nice if this feature were available <hint><hint>."
I'll mention it to them. This will probably come out as a PD addition rather
than part of the EGS system as a whole.
"BTW, are there any files/docs available for users to write EGS compliant
code??????"
Yes there are. However, they are LARGE. I'll work on getting them up here on
CompuServe…
"I never realized how much I'd miss PowerSnap, but obviously it won't work on a
non-native screen (perhaps another utility program you might consider for EGS).
It should work fine on the Workbench driver, but you are right, it does not
support native EGS screens. However, the console handler (L:ECON-HANDLER) does
support ConClip, so any text that appears in a console (or the EGS-Shell) can
be copied to the Clipboard and pasted somewhere else…!
"I'd really like to know if any of my problems are related to my busted Buster
problems (what exactly are the signs and symptoms of EGS' DMA problems with a
busted A3000????). Is it my monitor, my CPU, my humidity, my barometric
pressure???"
Garbage screens, missing chunks of visual data (i.e. the window draws, but the
imagery for the system gadgets — close, resize, zoom, etc. — is missing.
Also, crashes when resizing a window, or opening a new window are also good
indicators.
"Is there any way to speed up that workbench clone so that I can have the 256
colors I thought I'd have???"
Zorro-III mode is much faster at updating an 8-bit screen. Although the
EGS-SPECTRUM is faster than standard ChipRAM, you'll probably find 256-color
Workbench screens pretty slow due to the system rendering routines. Native EGS
8-bit screens are really snappy though…
"Will the 800x600x24 screen still flicker as much if I find and replace my
older Buster with revision 11 (that's the latest one, right?)"
Your flickering is probably not related to the Buster chip, but some other
problem — most likely monitor file…
Gary,
Once again, thanks for your reply and help!
I selected the 1950 driver from the install program (by the way, your
install program assumes that the env: is in RAM:, the fact that mine
exists in VD0: was a problem at first). DisplayAdjust shows 1950.monitor,
so I don't know why there should be a problem! I had to tweak down the
800×600 screen because at 24 bits, a white screen was giving me a
migraine! I created a new mode 780x585x24 which is solid and real nice.
There couldn't have been an error in duplicating the 1950 monitor file,
could there (I remember when I first got my IV24, it's PIP program had
some settings mis-set, and needed to be modified before it would run
correctly)? I've had no problem with my 1950 before, using all my ECS
modes, as well as your IV24 board, regarding flicker problems. It seems
curious to me that with the jumper set to Zorro III an 800×600 screen
would only go up to 16 bits, but by switching the jumper I was able to
raise it to 24 bits (without changing any monitor or configuration files.
As for the speed of a 800x600x8 256 color WB clone screen, it took more
than 2 minutes to redraw a few windows on the WB screen! Is this the
speed that GVP has seen in their A3000s? I can't see how that slow a
redraw speed would be practical? BTW, this speed was the same in Zorro II
and III mode (although it is possible that my Buster is faulty and I'm not
really operating at TRUE Zorro III mode).
As for the transparent cursor, I guess its a matter of aesthetics.
I'll just have to get used to it, although it problably should have been
mentioned in the docs (unless it's already in their and I missed it).
I look forwrad to the developer files (perhaps you can also post it on
Internet's Aminet FTP). Perhaps if I find spare time, I'll try my own
screen flipping hack <g>! I tried to use ToolManager's hot key event to
mimick a left amiga-m key press without success. Perhaps a more direct
approach will work!
As for PowerSnap, at first it looks like it works, but the program
can't seem to recognize the characters. Perhaps its a matter of finding
the "right" font to get it to work again. Hopefully the writer of
PowerSnap will buy a graphics board and get it to work right again (for
me). I realize that as long as I stay with console windows things will
work, but alot of the places I use PowerSnap aren't console devices (oh
well…).
As for your description of a Busted Buster, I haven't seen any visual
junk on the screen. I've had some problems with bringing up Bill Hawes'
CNC: console (locking things up once in a while), but this occurs both in
Zorro II and III. The only difference I see, is the 24 bit 800×600 screen
which I listed above. I ASSUMEd that it was an indication of a problem,
especially since you told me that GVP's A3000 in the US were all busted.
If I can obtain a version 11 SuperBuster, I will get it into my A3000
(along with another 4MB of RAM) and hope to see a speed upgrade, so that I
can have a practical 256 color WB screen.
Thanks again, I appreciate all the help that you've been. The Spectrum
board has been "growing" on me over the weekend. The screens are
beautiful and having a BIG workbench to spread out PageStream onto is
fantastic! Now I'll never be able to go back to 640×400 screen again<g>!
BTW, what is the purpose of the c: file programs included in the EGS
directory (EGSConfig, GvpCpuCtrl, NoCacheZorro3)???
// ** Commodore **
\X/ -The Bosnia of Computer Companies- -RSL-
"I selected the 1950 driver from the install program (by the way, your
install program assumes that the env: is in RAM:, the fact that mine
exists in VD0: was a problem at first)."
Noted, I'll talk to the Install script programmer to do a little more
checking for things like ENV:…
"DisplayAdjust shows 1950.monitor, so I don't know why there should be
a problem! I had to tweak down the 800×600 screen because at 24
bits, a white screen was giving me a migraine!"
What was the refresh rate of the "migrane" screen? If it was too low,
that would cause a "flicker" that could seriously become annoying…
😉
"There couldn't have been an error in duplicating the 1950 monitor file, could
there (I remember when I first got my IV24, it's PIP program had some settings
mis-set, and needed to be modified before it would run correctly)?"
Perhaps, but I doubt it. We've been using the "Production" install disks
around the office machines for the past four weeks, and all the systems here
with 1950s and 1960s are functioning correctly…
"I've had no problem with my 1950 before, using all my ECS modes, as well as
your IV24 board, regarding flicker problems."
All of the ECS modes, and even the IV24, did not seriously stress the monitor
to its limits. Expanding horizontal resolution is "easier" on a monitor than
expanding vertical resolution, and anything higher than 575 lines can be
considered "stressing" a 1950. Many VGA, and all SVGA monitors can handle the
extra vertical resolution, but I don't believe the 1950s and 1960s were ever
meant to go that high. The fact that they do shows foresight on the part of the
"buyers" who purchased the guts of the monitors for Commodore.
"It seems curious to me that with the jumper set to Zorro III an 800×600 screen
would only go up to 16 bits, but by switching the jumper I was able to raise it
to 24 bits (without changing any monitor or configuration files."
That is truly curious. The Zorro-II/Zorro-III setting should not affect the
resolution capabilities of the EGS SPECTRUM board at all… Let me ask a few
questions around here and see if anyone has some insight into that phenomenon.
"As for the speed of a 800x600x8 256 color WB clone screen, it took more than 2
minutes to redraw a few windows on the WB screen! Is this the speed that GVP
has seen in their A3000s? I can't see how that slow a redraw speed would be
practical? BTW, this speed was the same in Zorro II and III mode (although it
is possible that my Buster is faulty and I'm not really operating at TRUE Zorro
III mode)."
2 minutes!?!? Ughhh! I get a complete screen redraw of an 800x600x256 color
workbench with three windows open (SYS:, WORK:, and ImageStore: — lots of
files in each) in about 17 seconds! I just did it three times on the machine
behind me… Wow, I wonder what is affecting your machine so drastically?
"I look forwrad to the developer files (perhaps you can also post it on
Internet's Aminet FTP). Perhaps if I find spare time, I'll try my own screen
flipping hack <g>! I tried to use ToolManager's hot key event to mimick a left
amiga-m key press without success. Perhaps a more direct approach will work!"
I'm not sure where in the input stream the AMIGA-M test is performed, but I'll
ask.
"BTW, what is the purpose of the c: file programs included in the EGS directory
(EGSConfig, GvpCpuCtrl, NoCacheZorro3)???"
EGSConfig is used to initialize, configure, and control the EGS hardware
aspects of the operating system. Go into a Shell and type EGS:C/EGSCONFIG HELP
and you will get a lot of "stuff" spit out at you. Perhaps more informative is
to type EGS:C/EGSCONFIG SHOW ALL VERBOSE and then have some way to capture all
of the output it gives you.
GvpCpuCtrl is used to remap Kickstart on machines that have GVP accelerators
installed.
NoCacheZorro3 is a program used on Amiga 4000s. Zorro-III RAM boards are
usually cached for faster performance, and I/O boards are usually NOT cached,
to prevent data corruption. However, the Zorro-III bus tends to ignore all
requests for NO-CACHEING and does it anyway. The program NoCacheZorro3 uses
the 030's or 040's MMU to prevent caching on the EGS SPECTRUMs critical I/O
addresses (i.e. screen displays and graphics chip registers).
Gary Nush
The 800x600x24 screen's refresh rate is listed as 41 Hz (and it
REALLY does hertz <ugh><g>).
As for the WB clone slow down, it MIGHT be a buster problem, but
since no SuperBusters are available yet, I won't have that changed
fro a while. I hope that once it's fixed, my WB clone is close to
your system's speed! Do you have wallpaper on your WB? I've noticed
that it seems to spend ALOT of time drawing and redrawing WB's
wallpaper and my individual window's wallpaper when set to 256
colors.
Re:NoCacheZorro3, I assume that it's all right to run this on an
A3000 running in Zorro III (since your install program has it running
in my Startup-Sequence file.
I have noticed that there are some programs that seem to have
problems with EGS WB screens using OS 3.0 on an A3000. So far I have
found that the version of Caligari for my IV24 and VistaPro are
having problems. I will run thru my programs to check whether any
other problems exist (BTW, if I reset my WB to native Amiga, those
programs run fine – they must be making incorrect assumptions when
they see V39 libraries AND a 256 colr capable workbench screen!
Thanks again for your reponses. I really appreciate them. The
EGS Spectrum has turned my system into a workstation-like computer!
"The 800x600x24 screen's refresh rate is listed as 41 Hz (and it
REALLY does hertz <ugh><g>)."
Hmmm, my EGS 800x600x24 is listed at 51Hz, and it is solid here… I
wonder why yours is only at 41Hz??? Let me ask a few questions here
and see if I can come up with anything.
"As for the WB clone slow down, it MIGHT be a buster problem, but
since no SuperBusters are available yet, I won't have that changed
fro a while. I hope that once it's fixed, my WB clone is close to
your system's speed! Do you have wallpaper on your WB? I've noticed
that it seems to spend ALOT of time drawing and redrawing WB's
wallpaper and my individual window's wallpaper when set to 256
colors."
I have MAGICWB running with an 8-color marble backdrop. I included
that in my timings earlier. Workbench does redraw the backdrop (and
window backdrops) twice for every refresh. I'm not sure why, but it
does get rather annoying. 🙂
"Re:NoCacheZorro3, I assume that it's all right to run this on an
A3000 running in Zorro III (since your install program has it running
in my Startup-Sequence file."
It's fine.
"I have noticed that there are some programs that seem to have
problems with EGS WB screens using OS 3.0 on an A3000. So far I have
found that the version of Caligari for my IV24 and VistaPro are
having problems. I will run thru my programs to check whether any
other problems exist (BTW, if I reset my WB to native Amiga, those
programs run fine – they must be making incorrect assumptions when
they see V39 libraries AND a 256 colr capable workbench screen!"
I can't speak for VistaPro, but Caligari 'hacks' into the Workbench
screen to bring up its interface, and I'm not surprised that it
doesn't move well to non-native displays. I'd be REALLY surprised to
see it move successfully to any alternate display device.
Unfortunatey, to create the ease-of-use and speed required for a
professional interface, some programs break the rules a little, and
this ends up breaking something in the future… 😐
My 800×600 database lists three refresh rates – 54 Hz, 51 Hz, and
41 Hz (the latter for 24 bit depth) when set at higher rates, my
screen won't go to 24 bit depth in testmode – perhaps another Zorro
II problem??? I would appreciate it if you could check if your
technical staff and get back on this.
I'm using MagicWB myself, with an 8 color marble backdrop (and
also noticed the redundant background redraw). At 8 bit depths the
full redraw rate (for me) is more than two minutes! I have run
Mand2000 (another mandelbrot program) on an 8 bit deep screen and I
have to wait a LONG time to get the menu's to be drawn and erased
from the screen. Atleast when it comes to running 256 pseudo Amiga
EGS screens at Zorro II speeds, the intuition specific graphics is
VERY slow indeed (I REALLY hope that someday when I get a magic
Version 11 SuperBuster, these screens will be more useful).
The latest incarnation of VistaPro now works fine. Unfortunately
I've found that CanDo has problems also. I hope that they fix it!