CompuServe Thread

CDK fishing

7 messages in this thread
#127451From: Angela PateOct 6, 1994 9:25 AM
Glad to see someone out there interested in CDK. Yes we are using it in a big way everyday. As yet it is still an uphill struggle, not because of CDK but more because of how little the Autodesk community seems to be aware of it. We are trying to change that in the near future. We fishing here for feedback because we are about to release a shareware real-time flyer for Acad and 3D Studio users to fly around their models. It will be called NAVFlyer. It should be available right here in this section of the forum if we see enough interest being generated from the Adesk world out there. So let us hear from everybody interested! NAVFlyer uses CDK to fly around 3D models in real-time both shaded and in wireframe, using only the keypad with 6 degrees of freedom. It also has a "LOCK ON" feature (the num_lock key) that allows you to lock an object in the center of the screen so you can orbit it very quickly and simply. There is also a calibration control for adjusting speed on both translation and rotation, so you can alter it for different size models. (You have to fly slower in an atom than you do on the Grand Canyon.) We are going to add a $49 registration fee if the user wants additional support like flying with the mouse, and soon a faster diplay, etc. When discussing CDK performance, there is only really one issue, display speeds. In our full featured product, the Virtual Environment NAVIGATOR, if you set the diplay to NULL, meaning don't show me anything on the screen, the frame rates jump up to anywhere from 80 to 200 fps depending on the complexity of the model. That means the the simulation code itself, all geometry transforms, the viewpoint updating from flying around, the hand tools (color wand, move wand, rotate wand, user defined wands) the in-environment hypertext links… as well as all of the other features being managed by the CDK are performing quite fast. IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE GRAPHICS DISPLAY as to how fast the performance goes. So lets talk about displays. If you are running on a fast graphics card, meaning one of the specialized cards with hardware on board to speed things up like SPEA Fireboard (W/ I860) or Sapphire (w/ their own proprietary chip), then things can fly along at rates anywhere from 4 to 10 frames per second on really big models up to 18 to 28 frames per second on very simple models. This assumes a fairly decent machine 486 or Pentium (and the bus matters, depending on the card). Using local bus VGA's the speed is slower, like from 1 frame every couple of seconds on really big models up to 7 to 10 frames on simple models. Simple models mean models of less that 1000 polygons. We are now in the process of supporting Rendermorphics, which is a software display accelerator, It compares to the higher end card speeds, but uses VGA. Pre release information of CDK Rel 2, as announced at Siggraph, should support Rendermorphics, Hoops, RenderWare (Cannon) and SP3D from Spea. Whether they will be successful at all of these is still to be seen but we know they are working feverishly to produce a much improved Rel 2 (which will run under Windows). So… sorry for the lengthy reply but, look for NAVFlyer here soon as a demo. The existing demos that come with CDK work really fast on the high end cards, but their existing DOS VGA display class (VESA) is fairly slow, which we feel is why the CDK has not gotten more attention than it has. Release 1 really is a good product, just not mature in the display areas yet. What are your interests in CDK. Got any great plans for applications that you can share?
#127570From: Carlton NewtonOct 6, 1994 6:50 PM
Millard- Caught you post CDK fishing. I teach at Virginia Commonwealth University's Sculpture Department and we are very interested in CDK. We have a group of artists and students from different departments interested in VR and have been trying to decide how to get involved with it. Some of our students have gone hog wild over REND386 and AVRIL but I hate writing text to draw simple pictures. We've looked at VREAM and SENSE8 and we saw CDK run at last years AutoDesk University. Several students studied C++ over the summer thinking we'd have something in house for them to use this Fall so I'm about to make a decision. I'm a big fan of 3DS, its a well supported and terrific tool, and I too have noticed with interest the obvious intent to bring CDK and 3DS closer together. But the lack of activity on the CDK forum worries me a little. A bit of a rambling post for you but please upload your shareware, such a product would encourage me to get a copy of CDK even more, and there are a number of folks who I'm sure would be intrigued with playing with their 3DS models in "real time." Carlton
#127604From: Angela PateOct 6, 1994 9:16 PM
<<and there are a number of folks who I'm sure would be intrigued with playing with their 3DS models in "real time.">> I sure hope you are right! It is something we have believed since Rel 1 of 3DStudio when we began working with CDK initially (too long ago to think peacfully about). We went through 56 builds of CDK before it was shipped so we have seen quite an evolution over the years. Our end user products based on CDK run stand alone and also inside of AutoCAD. Do you think that it is something that users would want to see running inside of 3DStudio? It is our hope to get our NAVIGATOR product inside 3D Studio someday soon. We just haven't had the band width to persue the stumbling blocks we've run into so far, but we will get there eventually. At the risk of blowing this forum into a commercial tone, which is not our goal, please keep us in mind when you get CDK. We are AutoCAD, Multimedia and CDK dealers as well as developers and know more about it than anyone we have met yet for tech support. However, there are other good dealers out there as well. There need to be a lot more who are C++ experienced. It is really not as hard as it seems for all those dealers out there who support AutoLisp…Just a little jump more to an object oriented approach. Maybe if we can get more requests coming in from more people interested it will increase the sources for good support. Did your students study Visual C++ for Window? Rel 2 of CDK is Windows only, while Rel 1.01 that currently ships is Dos only. If they want the latest Rel, they should start working on Windows. Angela Pate- Yea I know it's Millard's name on the account.. But I talk more than he does. And that's not easy. Sending anything to either of us is the same as the other, we both read it all. I just type faster. You can tell when he types, the spelling is horrible as he hunts and pecks at a snails pace.
#127812From: Carlton NewtonOct 7, 1994 8:44 PM
Thanks for the reply. <Did your students study Visual C++ for Window? Rel 2 of CDK is Windows only, while Rel 1.01 that currently ships is Dos only. If they want the latest Rel, they should start working on Windows.> Oops. They need to start on windows. I guess I should mention that I am a sculptor turned 3DS fan and our interest in VR and CDK is purely experimental…we're not trying to design product as much as we're interested in have realtime inteactive capabilities for images. In addition to moving around 3DS objects we'ed like to have other realtime factors like blood pressure, respiration rate, and ambient room temperature (just kidding, but you know what I mean) affect the virtual worlds visual qualities by imputing data through some standardized I/O port. We would be interested in ways we could build the interaction so that the viewer might enjoy perceiving how changing I/O parameters would affect the image's qualities. Stereographic imaging wouldn't be as important as satisfactory frame rate (even if we viewed in wire frame) I'd love to see some more discussion of CDK on CIS. I can't tell you how informative this forum has been for my own development, how much I've picked up just lurking. I might have thrown up my novice hands in frustrated exasperation if the Yost group and many others hadn't answered my posts in some cases within a few minutes. Knowing help was so close encouraged me to forge ahead. It would be great to see such support happening with CDK. <Do you think that it is something that users would want to see running inside of 3DStudio?> Do you mean something like an IPAS or a way to shell out from 3DS directly to your viewer? I think so. Optimize my drawing to reduce face count and then run your viewer…sounds good to me. Can you send me any specs about hardware configs etc. I know I want a fast bus and video card. Will it still be a SPEA? What about the new boards from ATI and MATROX? Should we wait for GLINT or is the software support for that technology still off in the distance? anyway we are interested.
#127849From: Osman KentOct 8, 1994 5:11 AM
Hi Carlton, You may have heard that GLINT will be supporting Reality Lab from Render Morphics which is one the supported drivers for CDK. The Reality Lab port is being done right now and we are shooting for Comdex to show it. I understand that a port of RenderWare is also about to start. However, board level products from our customers like STB, SPEA, Datapath etc. will not become available before Q195 in volume. So if you want a product this week we could not help you. I suggest you give us a call at 408-436 3455 (Neil Trevett or Raj Singh) to get on our mailing list so that we can keep you up to date. During the next few weeks there will be some major announcements which might be of interest. Regards Osman [3Dlabs]
#127889From: Angela PateOct 8, 1994 3:51 PM
>> We would be interested in ways we could build the interaction so that the viewer might enjoy perceiving how changing I/O parameters would affect the image's qualities.<< I have seen this demo….. and… I have just been told that it WAS on the floor at Siggraph … It is a sculpture demo for CDK Rel 2 that is just wonderful. It allows the user to move a solid around with the cursor inside and around other objects while carving! Not only does it cut, it can also add mass (Union & Subtraction). It was written by one of the CDK team, Brian Blau. It works with the 6D sensor from Polhemus. As the user moves and rotates the sensor around in real space, he can carve (or add mass, depending on the mode toggled) to the virtual solid. I really hope they include it in the CDK Rel2 distribution! In terms of hardware configs, it is good to see the response from GLINT. Get those hardware guys to speak up here on the forum. Keep your eye on the software renderers like Rendermorphics. They are making the biggest difference right now in terms of performance for your dollar. We are in the process of supporting them in the DOS version of NAVIGATOR as well as a CDK Rel 1.01 display class. CDK Rel 2 will support them in Windows. Although we have seen some impressive boards, none seem very obtainable yet. Always, more to come…. I will send you our Virtual Design newsletter which contains lots of hardware info written by our favorite manufacturers that we represent as our chosen total solution (we are authorized dealers or vars for most VR related hardware and software) and support with NAVIGATOR like Autodesk, Future Vision Technologies, SPEA, Polhemus, Kaiser Electro-Optics, StereoGraphics, Spacetec and more. The VR magazines like CyberEdge Jounal and Virtual Reality World are good sources of system, software and peripheral information and Meckler's VR '94 is coming up in New York in November if you would like to see the state of the industry in a three day session. The panels, seminars and exhibition are relatively small, but it has become a respectable show in the past few years with speakers such as the head of SGI and Autodesk VP's . They do one each year in San Jose in May and NY in Nov. Keep chatting ….. Angela
#127921From: Carlton NewtonOct 8, 1994 11:59 PM
Hooray for the sculpture demo! I'm looking forward to see it. Sounds much more object shape affecting than I'm used to seeing on the Intel VR programs. Its good to hear that there are some interested parties out there looking at CDK. I'm interested in more hardware specifications so I can start to plan ahead for my purchases. Carlton