#Cobra 275 info
19 messages in this thread
Well,
I don't have all the data yet, but on an average, they seem to run about
as fast as 15 040's.
I don't know of the pricing for a workstation, but I know it is under
$10,000 (monitor, keyboard, etc)
We will have more detatils in a time test in an upcoming LWPRO.
JG
They run as fast as 15 28mhz 040s (not slow A4000s, mind you) at true
raytracing operations, and are from 8 to 10 times as fast at INT based
(i.e. standard LW renders) operations….The LightWave Pro article with
benchmark scenes and relative figures for all LW platforms, now and
future, is coming to a mailbox near you!
Grant Boucher
1 of 2 Supervising Animators :} – Star Trek: Voyager – Amblin Imaging
Thanks, Grant.
Thanks, John.
S.G. Bailey
Image Dynamics – Chicago
Grant,
IMHO, you should explain that LW is not shipping on any platform other than
Amigas for now. Too many loyal LW and Toaster users have been frozen in the
headlights of some oncoming Newtek product. This may all sound self-serving
and quite frankly it is. Before everyone rushes out to buy a box Lightwave may
not run on for some months you should remember how long Amblin had Screamers
before the rest of you got access to them.
As for DeskStation, we're still selling MIPS-based Raptors and Raptor
workstations. By the time LW 4.0 ships DeskStation will offer a system product
more compelling than whatever a Cobra 275 is, who ever thats from. BTW, based
on what we have come to understand, the Cobra guys are making little or no
money on the systems that have gone into Amblin so I doubt the general public
will get what Amblin got at anywhere near the same price. Just ask JG what
Amblin paid for the Screamer they have. Most hardware vendors can't survive
with no profits. If the Cobra people sell too many systems at the price their
willing to sell them to Amblin at they'll be out of business before you can say
C=.
For those of you interested, DeskStation will be announcing its LW platform at
Fall Comdex. This system will offer unmatched performance, flexibility, OpenGL
support and support for a wide variety of applications you will already know
and likely already use.
Just my nickel's worth.
Don
Don,
We eagerly await any and all announcements. 🙂
S.G. Bailey
Image Dynamics – Chicago
Just thought I'd jump in here and say that I saw the Cobra systems at a
recent show in SF. They were offering a killer show deal:
275 MHZ Alpha, 2MB cache, 32MB RAM, 1GB SCSI HD,
17" monitor, ATI Mach32, Ethernet, WinNT3.1,
bundled with:
Real3D and PhotoMorph2
The show special price was $9,999.00 (Alas, it was good only for the month
of Sept.)
Then there's always this new ShaBLAMM! board….A single R4600, 32MB RAM,
WinNT – all on single VESA Local Bus card for only $3,000. (Look for my
review of it in the November issue of Video Toaster User.)
Don was correct. Current LightWave users need to be aware that there are a
number of very powerful/economical solutions available RIGHT NOW!
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Eric,
There will be thousands of great LW 4.0 platforms, including fast Pentiums.
But, no matter how fast or how cheap, without LW 4.0 they're just door stops to
most people on this forum. If poeple here want to believe that the most
compelling LW 4.0 platforms are the ones shipping today like the Shablamm! or
Cobra ask someone who owns an R4000 Indy if he would have rather have waited
for an R4600-based Indy that shipped for exactly the same price just a few
months after the original was shipped. The fact that no one has ever been able
to purchase a Shablamm! board, although many have seen it demoed and many have
reviewed it, its probably a fast little product. And someone should go ask
those Cobra guys what makes their machine so fast?…..maybe its the
motherboards they buy from Digital Equipment that anyone with half a brain
could buy and put into a standard PC chassis themselves. When Amblin told us
they were looking at the Alpha-based systems we looked into getting the same
motheboards from DEC and reselling (yuck) them in system configurations.
Unfortunately, DeskStation can't afford to develop new and interesting system
products on 15 percent margins like the Cobras guys sell their wholly
undifferentiated Alpha systems at. We'd rather design something of our own
that offers more long-term value to the customer.
If poeple here wish to buy today's hardware to run tomorrow's software I guess
that's their choice.
Don
Just to clarify things:
'…ask someone who owns an R4000 Indy if he would have rather have waited
for an R4600-based Indy that shipped for exactly the same price just a few
months after the original was shipped.'
Wouldn't the same apply to those who got the Raptor, only to then be later
offered the Raptor+ for the same SRP "just a few months after the original
was shipped?"
The ShaBLAMM! is shipping now.
It works just fine as a Screamer CPU on any existing ScreamerNet.
It works with all current and future versions of LightWave, including
the version of ScreamerNet that people buy to use your systems.
(Which is, BTW, a generic ScreamerNet package.)
Finally, perhaps you could explain the benefit of using a proprietary
design, versus just reselling a widely tested product with more features?
We've all seen where proprietary designs and the NIH attitude got
Commodore. (And, while it may keep EE's busy, is it really more cost
effective for the end user?)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Eric,
Just to clarify things…..
<<<Wouldn't the same apply to those who got the Raptor, only to then be later
offered the Raptor+ for the same SRP "just a few months after the original
was shipped?">>>
Raptor+ is priced at $3000 more than the original Raptor and delivers nearly
twice the performance. I think most people are interested in better value. My
point is that all the hub bub about these other platforms is about running
software that's currently not available for it and may not be for some time.
We refrained from shipping any hardware until we were certain Newtek was
shipping ScreamerNet. Ask around, we probably displayed more restraint than
most vendors in our position. We even made some people angry because we
wouldn't ship, can you imagine?
The Shablamm! board is not a bad solution assuming you already have a VL-bus PC
to plug it into and 32MBs of memory satisfies your needs. You can put more RAM
on it but its not the fast EDRAM, its the normal DRAM and much slower. But it
works.
As for NIH killing C=, I don't believe anyone here believes that the Amiga
should be anything other than what it is and if not for its unique clocking it
wouldn't have fit the needs of the Toaster. No other computer can match the
Amiga's inherent, and proprietary, video timing. Without the Amiga thered be
no Toaster and without the Toaster there'd be no LW… and so on. An
undifferentiated hardware product is just what makes the PC industry so large.
But its monopolistic character has served to stifle innovation and technology
development. Suppose SGI just said "screw it, we'll just run on PCs." Think
you would honor them with $20-$30K for a uniprocessor system and allow them 50
percent margins. Perhaps their NIH is exactly why they're so successful and
companies like DeskStation would find it appealing to emulate them as opposed
the Cobra guys who seem to be emulating Gateway.
As I said in my previous post, anybody with half a brain could build that Cobra
system. I guess I forgot to mention that you'd also need a screw driver.
Don
P.S. Please don't tell the Cobra guys I've said all this stuff. I know them
quite well and they probably wouldn't appreciate any of this, besides I'm not
even suppose to be talking you. As for Shablamm!, I just spent the last couple
of days in NY with Tom North their president and CEO. He's got more than half
a brain and you're right, he's shipping. They've got a neat little product
although I'm not sure how well wildly the world will embrace it. But he's a
good guy and I hope he does well. I'm sure the review you did will please him.
Thanks for the response.
Sounds like you talked to your marketroids since the last time you jammed
me on this forum.
P.S. It's Erik with a 'K'. (I know. details, details…:^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Don,
Just some friendly advice…
If you don't want "information" to get back to people (ie Cobra), it's
probably a good idea not to post it on an online service. 😉
JG
BTW, FYI, I was informed that the motherboards that Cobra uses aren't just
motherboards that "anyone with half a brain" can buy.
John,
My jest to Erik about not telling on me was simply an indirect reference to the
previous "disagreement" between he and I on this forum. It was meant as a
joke. I know the Carrera guys personally. At one time they were buying
motherboards from us and putting them in systems similar to those they sell
now. That is their business model no matter what they may tell customers. They
buy the boards from DEC without CPU. They put the 275Mhz 21064A in the boards
and mofidify the CPU input clock and change the system clock divisor, that runs
off the CPU input clock so that the PCI bus runs at 33Mhz or less. In this
case their dividing by 8.333. For months DEC has been courting DeskStation to
try to get us to build an Alpha-based system. We know what products they have,
how much they cost and how they can be used. We either buy or borrow systems
that are produced by our would-be competitors so that we can understand the
nature of their products and how we might produce a superior one. If the board
in the Cobra didn't come from DEC then DEC has a striking similar board that
they make and sell and would give anyone with half a brain a license to
manufacture, so there's a chance I may be wrong. But that's really not my
point…..
….I do not want to publicly dispute Carrera's claims nor do I wish to imply
that their Cobra system is not a good computer, it is. I simply wanted to
point out that for the purposes of this forum it's important to understand that
LW 4.0 is not yet available and so the Cobra would have to be alot better than
it already is if it can be made useful even without the application. Anyone
with half a brain can build a computer the way Carrera does. Money and a screw
driver is also necessary. Beyond that, I stand by my earlier post.
You guys aren't making a mistake if you buy an Alpha-based system tody, you
have the software. Others may not be as fortunate.
Don
I don't think anyone has said anything about running 4.0 on the Alpha yet.
All we are doing is using the Beta Alpha ScreamerNet module, which most
likely is available now (or RSN) to anyone that would like to purchase it
from NewTek.
JG
Don,
Having followed this thread for several days, and other of your threads in the
past, I must admit that your posts often come across in a _very_ arrogant
manner, at least IMO.
Perhaps you have more than enough business, but the attitudes I've perceived in
several of your posts are enough _in and of themselves_ to preclude me
seriously considering a $1500 product from your company, much less a $15K
product.
Remember, no matter how hot the demand may be at any given moment for a
product, if the market for it is that strong, before long someone else will
build something similar, and in many cases will do it considerably cheaper.
Just my opinions and perceptions,
Jerry
Don, we bought a Shablamm! card as well (just for the heck of it I think)
and I touched it yesterday in Phil's office. I think the 133mhz version
isn't here yet, and I am sure they are not out in quantity, but they seem
to work well…I will be benchmarking it for LWPro but my guess is the
133mhz card doesn't match half a Raptor+…but we'll see!
Grant Boucher
1 of 2 Supervising Animators :} – Star Trek: Voyager – Amblin Imaging
Erik,
As always, thanks for the info. We look forward to your review.
S.G. Bailey
Image Dynamics – Chicago
Don,
Apologies for anything misleading in my post…LightWave is indeed not
shipping on anything but the Raptors and Amigas now, and I can quote
future product specs till I'm blue, but you have to buy what works NOW if
you need to do work NOW (as we all do). We are fortunate enough to be
beta-testing all render kernals and needed the Alphas weeks ago for STV.
We are certainly open for ANYTHING from ANYONE that will speed up our
horsepower and are extremely happy with our Raptors as well. I was told
by Martin that you were working on bigger, better machines for Christmas
and I am eagerly looking forward to hearing more about them and seeing
them!
IMHO, you make an excellent product and have an untarnished reputation to
date. As an end-user I can only hope that you blow our latest machines
out of the water !!! In fact, I'm counting on it :}
Carrerra made money on our machines this time, you made money on our last
purchase…we will likely be buying a LOT more machines with the way
things are going at Amblin these days…so keep in touch :}
Grant Boucher
1 of 2 Supervising Animators :} – Star Trek: Voyager – Amblin Imaging
Grant,
<<<Carrerra made money on our machines this time, you made money on our last
purchase…we will likely be buying a LOT more machines with the way
things are going at Amblin these days…so keep in touch :}>>>
I didn't mean to imply that Carrera made no money on their sales to you. But
we did look into getting the same boards from DEC and pulling together the same
configuration, but we wouldn't have made enough money for it to make sense. If
you have the opportunity to come to COMDEX in LV next month we'll show you what
we'll be shipping by the time LW 4.0 is shipping, maybe even sooner.
We have a saying around DeskStation that may seem a little arrogant, and I know
plenty of people right here who would say we are, although we're really very
nice people as you have often said, but anyway the saying goes, "you may buy a
competitor's product today but you will regret it tomorrow." DeskStation will
be delivering its third-generation product this Fall: an incredibly unique
Windows NT system platform that will knock your socks off. Nothing will beat
it for speed, flexibility, and value. And although the Cobras may serve you
well today, when you see our next product you will regret that you didn't wait.
But that's okay. We can be humble, sort of, for now.
We'll be baaack.
Don
>If you have the opportunity to come to COMDEX in LV next month we'll show
>you what we'll be shipping by the time LW 4.0 is shipping, maybe even
>sooner.
You might want to do what Carrera did and send us a beta unit, instead.
Phil, JG, and I will gladly run it through its paces.
>…And although the Cobras may serve you well today, when you see our
>next product you will regret that you didn't wait.
I need to render hugely complex refractive glass animations in time for an
early December deadline. My benchmarks on the Alpha are known to you and
and Martin and quite simply, the Alphas we just purchased will assure us
of that delivery date…and nothing else (in our budget). That is my ONLY
concern.
I look forward to seeing your future product line as well as upcoming
chips from CED that are supposed to blow the doors off of their current
chips! We will be buying a LOT of computers in the near future, so keep
innovating.
Grant Boucher
1 of 2 Supervising Animators :} – Star Trek: Voyager – Amblin Imaging