#Printing problems with 3
13 messages in this thread
I am still having a hard time getting anything that looks like a reasonable
image to print to a hard copy. I have tried playing with the Gamma settings, I
have tried different settings in PhotoShop (Level/Adjust). As a result of this
very trying situation, the following questions have come up:
1. What is the relationship between Pixels per inch and Dots per inch
other than the obvious that one is related to the screen and the other to the
printer. When I am rendering in 3DSr3, in the Render/Setup/Configure dialogue
box, I have to put in the resolution. Does this resolution have anything to do
with the DPI that my printer will handle (in this case 360 for the Canon BJC
800)?
2. How do I calculate the resolution that I want, knowing that the output
will be A3 size (420×290)?
3. Re: Gamma: should the output Gamma be the same as the display gamma?
4. I did the following experiment: I created 3 boxes in 3DS. I gave each
one a different colour (one red, one green, and one blue) and recorded the RGB
colour values. I then rendered the file and imported the results into
PhotoShop. The colours of the boxes were completely different. Yes, there was
a red box, a green box and a blue box, but the RGB values were not the same as
I have given them in 3DS.
5. Is gamma the problem here or is there something else that I am missing?
I guess most people must be printing either to film or to video. Is it
possible that there is something in the transfer to a printer that 3DS just
cant do? My frustration is that even though the images look good on the
screen, in all the programs (3DS, PhotoShop and CorelDraw), I just cant seem to
get them to print. Is my problem a limitation of the Canon BJC800?
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
Don
Don:
You've got some good questions.
1. You can pretty much interchange pixels for dots to understand resolution.
Your printer will handle 300 dot/pixels per inch and if you were to print a
file that was 300 x 300 pixels you would get a 1 inch image. However, most
drivers have boxes to check off which will scale the image to fit the page.
Check this box off and everything I have said about getting a 1 inch image is
no longer true.
2. A3 = roughly 11" x 17" right? Your printer can put out 300dpi so 300*11
x 300×17 = 3300 pixels x 5100 pixels = the image size which would max out
your printer thus yielding the highest resolution print you could get. FWIW,
You could probably be satisfied with the quality at half this resolution.
3. I'll await someone else's answer for gamma questions.
4. See #3.
5. Your printing woes are most certainly not a limitation of 3DS. I am as
interested as you are in getting all monitors and printed output looking the
same. I have had some success with simple brightness/contrast adjustments on
the monitors. EfiColor which ships with Quark and KPCMS which comes with
Photostyler have helped alot with my printed output on a Canon Fiery system.
Bob
Bob:
Thanks for the input.
I did some additional experiments and indeed, the pixel resolution selected in
3ds translates directly into DPI. For example, I rendered an image at 2400 x
1768 PPI. I then imported the TIF into CorelDraw. The imported file was 203mm
x 150mm which is about 8" x 6", which would be 2400 x 1768 at 300 DPI. A
similar result happened with a rendered image is 1600 x 1200 which resulted in
an imported file of about 5.3" x 4". (I work almost completely in metric and
so the conversions from DPI and PPI into metric are always somewhat
approximate.)
I started printing with the 1600 x 1200 resolution. Unfortunately, the quality
of the print does not improve with the image rendered at 2400 x 1768. This is
not quite half of your recommended "half of 3300 x 5100 pixels" but I had hoped
that there would be an improvement.
I am very curious about whether or not I should be setting the Gamma output to
be the same as the monitor gamma. There does not seems to be anything definite
about this in the literature.
Hi Don,
<< I am very curious about whether or not I should be setting the Gamma output
to be the same as the monitor gamma >>
File output gamma should be different from monitor gamma. A monitor tends to be
a non-linear device while a printer tends to be a linear device (with respect
to gamma..) . I've seen some of the printing tests around here and individuals
tend to select a printer, print an image several times with different gamma
values, hold them up to the monitor and then choose the "correct" gamma.
Monitor gamma will typically be set near 1.8 while file output gamma for
printing will be near 1.0..
Hi Jonas:
Thanks for sticking with me. Sorry if I sounded a bit testy – it was a
frustrating day.
And it becomes more and more confusing because page 5 of the advanced useds
guide says that for "hardcopy prihnt media … gamma correction is not
required." However, I have tried rendering with gamma turned off and the
results have been less than good.
Do you have any suggestions as to the size of image I should be rendering. I
have tried up to 2400 x 1768 but the resultant file is becoming cumbersomly
large. How big should a TIF file be? How long is a piece of string?
I haven't tried to particular combination of settings that you suggested, so
will do so and see what happens.
Thanks for the help.
Don:
One area of this racket which really mystifies me is gamma. There was a whole
thread a while back on the subject. I believe its in the library. I got a few
ideas from it which have brought me to the point where I have acceptable
output. I swear there is a market for 'Gamma Consultants'. I know I'd hire a
guy to come into the office and set me up for WYSIWYG printing on all of our
computers and printers.
Bob
Don,
<<Gamma output to be the same as the monitor gamma>> The simple answer is no.
The gamma 'should' be, as stated by others in the 1.8 to 2.0 range for
hardcopy. However, this is NOT the case with ALL hardcopy devices. Some
dye-sub printers with high resolution are similar to monitors in regards to
gamma settings. The other areas of hardcopy concern are dot gain, contrast,
brightness, contrast, and primary ink colors. The cyan used on one printer is
NOT the same as used by some other printer. In addition your monitor is
palleted in RGB space while your hardcopy device is probably palleted in CMYK
space. On your monitor you can alter the intensity of any single dot thereby
producing millions of colors. Depending on the printer you can put down a
magenta dot, not a light magenta dot nor a dark magenta dot, simply a magenta
dot! The colors you get from your hardcopy device are created with a process
called dithering. The better the dithering the better the output.
Produce your own test strips and record on the back of each strip what the
settings were. Images tend to be similar in certain attributes depending how
they were created. By finding past test strips and comparing the image types
to your strips you 'should' be able to get it pretty close the first time.
Russ
Insight Development
Don,
Just for the purposes of reference, I've gone out to several different kinds of
printers, and even a D size plotter. Where I start is with a gamma value of
1.8 across the board, then render at appropriate resolution for the output
device (sounds like you already have that one nailed), then I go into
Photostyler, brighten the image about 15%, punch up the contrast about 7%. This
has worked for me. I gave up on trying to figure it out as far as a logical
process. There's no real answer.<g>
Roger D.
Roger,
<<I gave up on trying to figure it out as far as a logical process. There's no
real answer>> AMEN!
Russ
Insight Development
Hi Don,
<< 3. Re: Gamma: should the output Gamma be the same as the display gamma?
>>
Have you read pg 4..6 in the Advanced User's Guide yet?
Have you reviewed color plate #19, #20, #21, #22 in the 3DS Ref Man yet?
Have you read GAMMA.ZIP found in the 3D Studio section of the lib yet?
These are all good places to catch up on gamma…
jonas
Jonas:
Yes, I have read pages 4-6 of the Advanced Users guide, reviewed the colour
plates mentioned read ALL 43 pages of Gamma.Zip. In fact, I have been through
all of this several times. My frustration, is that after doing all of this,
and being a resonably intelligent person, I seem to be getting no nearer to a
solution to my problem. I think I have a fairly reasonable understanding of
Gamma. I certainly don't confess to being an expert however.
If you have any other suggestion, I would be extremely grateful.
>> I am still having a hard time getting anything that looks
>> like a reasonable image to print to a hard copy. I have
>> tried playing with the Gamma settings, I have tried different
>> settings in PhotoShop (Level/Adjust). As a result of this
>> very trying situation, the following questions have come up:
>> 1. What is the relationship between Pixels per inch and Dots
>> per inch other than the obvious that one is related to the
>> screen and the other to the printer. When I am rendering in
>> 3DSr3, in the Render/Setup/Configure dialogue box, I have to
>> put in the resolution. Does this resolution have anything to
>> do with the DPI that my printer will handle (in this case 360
>> for the Canon BJC 800)?
The Canon does not print a full color bitmap at 360 bitmap pixels per inch. It
has a native resolution of 360 ink dots per inch. Each ink dot is one of the
ink colors it uses (CMY?). To get red it must print a magenta dot next to a
yellow dot. This cuts the resolution in half. Actually, to get a reasonable
range of colors (probably around 256 actual colors) the printer must group its
360dpi pixels into "superpixels". This is a similar process to the screens
used by offset printing. Most printers with a 300-360dpi native resolution
use a screen/dither frequency of 55-75 lines/inch (or superpixels/inch).
If you are using Photoshop, you can use Image/Image_Size to set the resolution
of your image to 65 pixels/inch (Click "file size" first so that it just resets
the resolution setting instead of rescaling your image.)
>>2. to 4. deleted
>> 5. Is gamma the problem here or is there something else that
>> I am missing? I guess most people must be printing either to
>> film or to video. Is it possible that there is something in
>> the transfer to a printer that 3DS just cant do? My
>> frustration is that even though the images look good on the
>> screen, in all the programs (3DS, PhotoShop and CorelDraw), I
>> just cant seem to get them to print. Is my problem a
>> limitation of the Canon BJC800?
>> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>> Don
3DS is simply creating a bitmap image. You can set gamma to adjust the
luminance of the midrange pixels. You can adjust the materials and lighting to
get a good image, but once it is rendered, the image is out of 3DS's "hands".
From that point on the image quality is determined by any subsequent
adjustments you do, the program you use to print and the printer its self. The
Canon printer, like any low resolution color printer, is not really a
professional proofing device. It will give good results with color line
drawings such as from Illustrator and CorelDraw or with color text and such.
It does not have the resolution to do justice to 24-bit renderings however, if
properly adjusted, the results may be good enough for your purposes.
You are correct, that most of the default settings in 3DS are intended for
Video. I have no idea what gamma setting would be appropriate for this
printer. We use the normal gamma for a TGA file and then make adjustments in
Photoshop if need be. You might try increasing the brightness of your lights.
The default setting of 180 is intended to prevent overdriving video. For print
purposes, you want the greater dynamic range of full brightness light.
Terry Gilbert
Forcade & Associates
Terry,
PMJI, << The Canon does not print a full color bitmap at 360 bitmap pixels per
inch. It has a native resolution of 360 ink dots per inch. Each ink dot is
one of the ink colors it uses (CMY?). >>
I am looking for a decent color inkjet printer do you have any opinions about
the HP 560C for output of high rez. full page 3DS rendered prints?
Thanks,
Mark