#EX AMIGA
29 messages in this thread
Hi all,
Has anyone had any experience with these new programs running under windows –
ex Amiga…Real-3d , Calligari Truespace , Imagine…?
I have played with Truespcae but am interested to haer any opinions about thier
compatability with 3Ds and what they might offer that 3Ds does not (not that I
have any doubt that 3dS is the preferred platform but it's good to keep up with
the Joneses).
Any advice would be appreciated.
Glenn Zephyr.
Ive worked with Real3D. Its a very complete program ( includes IK,
collision detection, friction, waves, spines, spline, poligonal and solid
modeling, ray tracing and scan line rendering, on and on ) It includes esoteric
capabilities such as animating boolians ( the holes
could travel through the swiss cheese ) Theres a very interseting way of
relating models, materials, movements and attributes in hierarchies
that works well once learned. Its got a programming language that would enable
someone smarter than me to build custom tools.
The bad news is or was (Ive got the last Windows beta before the $400
upgrade ) that its hard to learn. 3DS seemed very easy and well designed by
comparison. For example, its not unusual for a menu with 10 items to be imbeded
three menus deep. Also, you might be able to make a snowstorm with wind but it
might take a half hour for the wireframe redraw (much less the rendering ) of
each frame. As far as using it
with other programs, it imports DXF but only exports DXFs of its spline models,
not the solid or boolian stuff. I really had high hopes for it because of its
feature list but now feel at home with 3DS. The guys at my neighborhood 3D shop
( Computer Cafe, an Amiga outfit ) said they could never get productive with
it. If you want one, make me an offer. The only thing I miss is the moving
holes.
Edward,
Thanks for your reply about Real-3D. I had it for three days trial and I could
only just get started on it! I had a feeling that it was a very capable
dinosaur and I'm glad to hear someone else echo the sentiment. But the swiss
cheese does sound good! 🙂
Glenn Zephyr.
Glenn:
I just got a flier for Real 3D v2.4. Is this the one you guys are talking
about? The list of features seems to have some cool stuff:
Particle animation
Inverse Kinematics
Behavioral animation
Procedural animation
Acceleration/deceleration
Collision detection
Skeletonal control
Spline modelling
Solid modelling
'shrink wrap' function
3d font loader
Volume filling particle tool
Saveable macros
Unlimited undo
landscape and tree fractal generators
'snap to' existing objects
line and wall lights
refraction rendering
Most if not all of the above are either IPAS routines for 3DS or do not exist
at all for 3DS. However, they all come in the Real 3D BASE PACKAGE and cost
$1295 list. There is even an Alpha compiled NT version for $1995. Maybe
somebody reading this will understand why I've been interested in getting the
'new feature list' of 3DS NOT the 'new IPAS routine list' to read similar to
the above.
I'm gonna have to look into this package for the modelling tools alone.
Bob
Be careful of feature lists. Talk to someone who uses the package in
production before you spend any $$$. Bill (MG) Batchelor is the Asofter
most-familiar with it. Perhaps he can give you a heads-up.
– G
Gary:
/__________From your message___________\\
Be careful of feature lists. __________________________________________
I hate to say this but I learned that lesson here. 🙁 I'm keeping my eyes
open for the best tools. A product compiled for the Alpha already has a plus
in my book. 😉
Bob
<g> There's a difference between pre-release lists and release lists.
Caveat emptor. Talk to someone first.
– G
PMJI Bob, but if you're considering Real 3D:
<< Be careful of feature lists. Talk to someone who uses the package in
production before you spend any $$$. Bill (MG) Batchelor is the Asofter
most-familiar with it. Perhaps he can give you a heads-up.
– G >>
Unless you just want to play…..stay away (no poem intended) 🙂 Trust me.
BILL
Waht I saw of real-3d I did'nt like much. It may be really powerful but the
interface seemed convoluted. I counted only 2 things on the list that 3DS can't
do (unless I'm mistaken and there's every chance of that!). Thanks for the
feature list Robert.
Glenn Zephyr.
Back when Topas was KING and 3DS was the newcomer I said that animators ought
to consider having more than just one tool in thier bag of tricks. Now that 3DS
is KING, no one should be smugly demanding it do EVERYTHING. As is noted here,
Real 3D and Lightwave look promising, and should begin nibbling at YOST's
market dominance next year, as well as exerting price pressure. If you do this
stuff for a living , buy them, so you have the right tool for the right job. In
most cases though, 3DS remains the only logical choice if you can only afford
one program.
Bruce N. Goren
PMJI, but to clarify my message to Bob & Glenn…..DON'T buy Real 3D if you
plan to use it *in your business*. Because, you really can't. It may be
interesting to play around with, but is absolutely unuseable in a production
environment. I believe that was sort of the point Gary was trying to
make….feature lists don't mean squat if the product is ridiculously
structured….and it is…it's unuseable. And it's not because it's "too
difficult to learn", it's because it's too difficult TO USE PRODUCTIVELY. I was
just trying to save some people money, IF they thought they could USE R3D in
their business. I was intimately involved in the program for quite some time,
and I'm just being honest here. I'm very disappointed that they decided to
release it in it's current state of screwiness. I tried to help them out and
did for a long time, but I'm ashamed it was released as it is. What a waste.
BILL
Bill:
O.K. so you believe that Real 3D cannot be used productively. Why? I'm just
looking for a better modelling environment. Personally, I find the 3DS
Shaper/Lofter/Editor approach as tedious and unproductive when compared to a
combination environment with accurate 3D object snapping. I'm sure you have
used a solid modeller and I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. What is it
about Real 3D's modelling environment which makes this product so unuseable?
Bob
I'm so glad you asked….
I have also been involved with Real3D since last year, being a beta tester.
Bill and I had many phone conversations about Real3D, and most of them we were
shaking our heads wondering why the programmers felt they could release a
product that was so boneheaded and cumbersome interface-wise.
problems (a few…):
1) one has to press the respective function key EVERY SINGLE TIME one wishes to
perform the operation. If you want to move a CV, you have to push the "move
CV" button. Makes sense. If you want to move another CV, or the same one
again, you HAVE to push the "move CV" button each time again, no matter what.
Hot keys make this a teeeeeeeeeeeeny weeeeeeeeeeny bit less frustrating, but it
still causes unbeleavable wasted motion.
2) Inverse Kinematics is totally unuseable, IMHO. While it does work (more or
less), it is not possible to assign constraints other than friction, so elbows
can rotate 360 degrees, etc… This is not the way it's supposed to work, and
the Yost Group IK IPAS is infinitely superior, and worth the price of Real3D
alone, IMHO.
3) setting user windows is a royal pain in the butt. There are defaults, but
if you don't happen to like them, although it is totally possible to set the
windows any way you want, I found it very time consuming and frustrating to do
so.
4) rendering is too slow, and under any sort of _speedy_ raytrace settings it
doesn't look 1/4 as good as 3DS. If you crank the settings up to take
advantage of the raytracer, you'll grow a grey beard before your animation is
finished, unless you're happy with chrome balls floating above checkerboard
planes. Great Compuserve Image of The Month program <g>.
5) The export filter is all but useless, unless you're planning on going out to
a spline based CAD package that can read spline info DXF's.
6) Screen redraws on large models are EXCRUTIATINGLY slooooooooooooooooow.
I've got a superfast windows card (MGA 4meg) and running in anything over
640x480x8bit (why use windows if this is the only useful rez?!) slows things
down much to much.
7) setting a keyframe is about as simple as breaking into fort knox. In my
beta version there wasn't even a way to set keyframes – one had to write out
morph targets! They wanted to release the software like that! We screamed and
yelled, and I guess on this one they listened… but 3DS' method is much more
direct.
8) Interface sucks. Interface sucks. Interface sucks. Interface sucks.
'Nuff said.
9) I crashed it quite a few times. I haven't crashed 3DS since I got all the
memory managment bugs straightened out (two years ago).
There are plenty other reasons I don't think this is a productive package in a
buisness environment, but you can see for yourself if you like. I'll sell you
my copy of Real3D, with original installation disks and printed manual (release
version) for many hundreds less than you can get anywhere else. I'll even call
Adam Godfrey (realsoft north america) personally and make sure you get full
support. But full support in Real3D didn't mean much to me.
I just want to add that I think you overreacted severely about R4 and the
"subject to change" feature list. I don't understand how you could have missed
the "subject to change" thingy? It's on all feature lists of unreleased
software, as well it should be. Things happen, and not all features can make
it into a final, bug free version.
IMHO, spline patch modeling is of severely limited use, VASTLY overestimated by
many people on this forum, maybe because it contains the buzzword "spline".
You would probably have used it 10% of the time compared to lofting,
primitives, and 3D editing, and you would have been very disappointed. If you
think moving vertices is tedious, there are plenty of vertices to be moved in
spline modeling. As a matter of fact, in spline patch modeling it is the only
way to make a model, unless your model happens to be a flat peice of paper, or
a cylinder. Think about it: each patch has something like 16 CV's. The more
detail you want in your model, the more patches you will need to increase the
model's resolution, the more CV's you'll have to push and pull. It's JUST like
vertice editing. The biggest advantage of splines would not be available in a
patch modeler like the one that was to come with 3DS, and that is the ability
to draw a series of curves and skin or patch them. These functions are part of
a more complete spline package. Real3D does have these features, but they are
implemented in such a way as to be unuseable to MOST people.
I have seen some good work done in Real3D, but not that much. Real3D would
have been a great tool had the programmers put one iota of effort into clever
interface design, which, IMHO is just as important as juicy feature lists. If
Real3D could have a better implementation, and export models to 3DS, I probably
wouldn't offer to sell the program to you. If you're interested, e-mail me.
If you want, give me a ring and I'll tell you all about real3D.
John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
Thanks for the time you spent putting that message together, John. Very
informative.
– G
John:
Thanks for some real feedback about Real 3D.
//_____________From your message_____________\\
I just want to add that I think you overreacted severely about R4 and the
"subject to change" feature list.
_______________________________________________
I think you've got me confused with SOMEONE else!! I was the guy who first
mentioning the fine print (to Roger D. as I recall). I was the guy saying one
shouldn't make decisions on a preliminary feature list. Turn your date back
and read my messages, better yet I'll email you the lot. I've been having
conversations all over the place trying to find out how useful a spline patch
modeller could be to me, a lowly architect. I haven't a clue as to how I would
make use of it had it been included.
My goal and desire is to find a better modelling environment. I am
dissatisfied with 3DS. I am trying to find out if my wishes for 3DS will fall
on deaf ears or if I will have to look elsewhere for a better tool. You've
helped me evaluate Real 3D but I think you've made a big mistake as to my views
and reaction to the R4 feature list. R4 is what it is and IMHO it is a minor
step forward for use as an architectural rendering tool. I'll weasel my
company into springing for the upgrade and I'll make up my own mind if it
changes the way I do anything. A weeklong render in R2 changed to a night in
R3. I don't see anything listed for R4 which will have such a significant
impact for me. Port 3DS to the Alpha and the one night renders will be done in
an hour (We've got 15 Alphas sitting here already with another 9 on order).
Nothing would make me happier than to have R4 prove to be an extraordinary
value, I'll hold out for R5 but if you don't see me at SIGGRAPH doing my Cuban
Pete impersonation you'll know why.
Bob
at least give it a whirl to get an appreciation for 3DS's productivity. Who
knows… maybe it'll work for you.
John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
I think you'll be happy with R4, it's got enough features and increased
stability to make the measly $295 (that's a relative use of "measly", I know
<g>) worthwhile.
John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
The features you seem to be looking for are readily available… but not to
"dirt poor architects" <g>. If you had a few hundred grand to blow you'd be in
big time buisness with Alias AutoStudio. It's about as feature rich and
awesome as you get. There just isn't such a thing in animation software on the
PC. Autosurf and Adesks' parametric package might be a nice for you, though…
have you considered those?
John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
<< O.K. so you believe that Real 3D cannot be used productively. Why? >>
It CAN'T be used productively, ….that's not just my opinion. See John T's
message for some *limited* details. I tried to be straight with John at the
time when I was still somewhat involved in the product, but of course, never
believed it would be released as such. Even though I was very upfront with John
about the program at the time, I still feel bad that he bought it….and he's
not talking to me anymore either ! <g> It would be in bad (worse) taste for me
to go further with this publicly. Hey, it's your money. If you really want to
find out, buy John's copy at a great savings…..then I'll feel better <BG>.
Regards,
BILL
Bill:
I gotta flier in the mail, I'm hardly ready to throw my money at a program I
know nothing about other that what they CLAIM it will do. Thanks to you and
John T I have a better understanding of the package. Looks like I'm on
everybody's sh*t list for mentioning this software, lighten up fellas, sheesh.
Bob
<< Looks like I'm on everybody's sh*t list for mentioning this software,
lighten up fellas, sheesh. >>
Not mine Bob. I just wanted to save you the grief AND the money. That's all.
I've got to many problems of my own to even HAVE a sh*t list ! (:?)<g>
BILL
You're definitely not on my shit list – I just wanted to make sure you don't
blow $1.2K on software that won't suit your needs.
John Tissavary | LUNA cie, inc
John:
Thanks again for the heads up on the Real 3D question. Actually, it was Glenn
M. who asked about this program and all I did was rattle off a few features
from the flier I got. Of course I asked questions like, "Why aren't features
like this in the base 3DS package?" just to stir things up and WHAMMO! I
almost had orifice options for my next bowel movement. :-{ All is calm now,
thanks again.
Bob
Now that got me curious! I'm going to have to hunt it down just so I can relate
to this new level <g>.
<< Now that got me curious! I'm going to have to hunt it down just so I can
relate to this new level <g>. >>
I'm sorry Phillip, I'm completely brain-dead right now. Which message were you
responding to ? Sorry.
Regards,
BILL
I was reffering to Real3D – don't worry abbout it <g>. Your discussion gave
me some amunition the next time I see it demo'd <bg>.
– Phil
PMJI Glenn, but if you're considering Real 3D:
<< Be careful of feature lists. Talk to someone who uses the package in
production before you spend any $$$. Bill (MG) Batchelor is the Asofter
most-familiar with it. Perhaps he can give you a heads-up.
– G >>
Unless you just want to play…..stay away (no poem intended) 🙂 Trust me.
BILL
Bill, I had'nt really thought of stepping across to another platform, not while
3D-Studio is looking so strong. I was just interested in keeping abreast of
what's happening out there as it all changes SO fast! I don't see Real-3D as
being the be all and end all as yet! Glenn
Howdy Glenn,
Great minds think alike huh? I'm actually willing to take the plunge. I've
given Peter Stott free range to bill me for True space which looks like it has
a lot of potential. ( What sold me on it I guess was the article in CGW Sept? )
There could be a job coming up requiring a smooth type of skin with folds etc
that I feel this program can achieve.
I was dissillusioned with the IPAS skin plug in as it seems to have a hernia if
any geometry is altered on the model. Only Kosher lofted objects stand a chance
in skin. ( If I'm wrong please enlighten me! )
The desire for patch type geometry editing has led me to order Truespace.
However, Peter seems to be in a Tug O' Softwar for distribution rights with
another company, leaving me waiting. When I get a chance to play with it I'll
let you know. It has been a couple of weeks now and I'm getting edgy for the
product, time for another call.
There is an article in the CGW as well as a full page ad. for Truespace. Like
I said, I think it's the Sept issue. It's got a couple of spidery chairs on the
cover and Sterotypical Tv complete with hash. If you're still curious you can
write me you know my number!
—–Len.