#Continued.. some ideas
45 messages in this thread
I really hope LOTSA people gonna read this, because you can only expect to sell
your stuff overseas if you support the foreign countries fonts, keymaps, chars
(in the correct manner) and screen resolution (read PAL). Also hope nobody
feels offended, but I sometimes get the feeling like you guys over there live
in some world of your own.
Answers, (or anything else 🙂 ) should be send to Mike Metz, he'll forward
them to me.
<CB>
PS: I saw those bugs in a pirated version of TxED 1.3. But I will buy it,
when those mentioned bugs are destroyed!
PPS: When will TxED PLUS be released and how much will it cost?
SOrry about the missing characters in V1.3 TxEd keymap, when I
designed it I didn't have any information about the new keys so
it was difficult to anticipate. They'll be fixed in TxEd Plus,
and I'll try to make handling of all the alt chars work better.
.
Not sure why alt-chars aren't accepted by the ARP commands, likely
there is something in the parsing routines that doesn't like them.
I'll put it on the list of things to check out. Regarding the
sorting, I doubt we'll do anything about them as the current
arp.library Strcmp functions is fast/dumb&happy – it considers
all characters as a single binary value to compare against. If
you want to change the way the sort function works, you could
do a SetFunction on the arp.library Strcmp function with one
of your choice.
.
We're certainly interested in sales overseas, especially
since sales of Amigas have been over 50% overseas. Any
feedback is appreciated relating to differences needed to
make programs work better for various different countries-
…cheath
I will hand this text to <CB>.. and hope, that he will happy to heare that.
The other thing was, that all the other softwaredevelopers will particapate on
those messages and take them by heart.
Thanx Charlie
-Mike
Mike,
Don't be too hard on developers who don't know all about the many different
European languages or TV standards. You asked if we in North America "live in a
world of our own", and the answer is a qualified yes. Remember, in Europe, you
are constantly exposed to many languages, cultures, etc. on a daily basis. In
North America, English and NTSC are standard. Many developers are aware of the
need to cater to more than that, but many are not. Even some that are aware do
not always pursue it, feeling that there are just too many languages and too
many standards. (Do some countries still use SECAM?).
Regards, Larry.
In addition to the tecnical issues of getting software to work
for foreign countries, there are even bigger commercial problems
particularly for small developers. Getting distribution
across international borders is much harder than within your
own region, and each country has its own distribution channels.
Resources get spread pretty thin trying even with a single
market. We've been happy to get 10% of our sales in Canada
and Europe combined, and I've gone out of my way to try to
keep our foreign customers happy by sending free updates
and giving the overseas distributors good prices, and swallowing
the shipping costs, so they can charge less. Unfortunately,
though, we haven't gotten many of the registration cards
returned from overseas, so we haven't been able to send out
updates or get feedback on our user surveys to find out
what we need to do to keep folks happy.
…cheath
There is also a piracy problem — an extreme one — in europe. There is
precious little incentive to market there when you know you're going to be
robbed blind! –Ben–
I know of that problem and it's my task taking care about the piracy over here,
but it's really hard – even when i see, that the market here is changing, as
the programs YOU write are better (no, not you Ben, but all american
developers)
But one thing I should remark: Take care about all the guys there, that send
all the newest software to Germany to let it be cracked. The people here would
not crack, if there was no software available they could crack.
One other thing.. you never heared of DeLuxe Paint II.1 (PAL-German Version).
Everybody is trying to crack this one – even if nobody would really use this
bad software-translation! It's kind a sports! I would never pick up the upgrade
for this version… I myself will use the DPaint II (original PAL-engl.)!
-Mike
Well, mike — since we do NOT copy protect — it's not necessary to "crack" our
software. We will not penalize the honest customer for the as*h*les who think
piracy is a game or a sport. No, I have never heard of DPII.1 — but then, I'm
not familiar with the PAL version of anything at all. Best, –Ben–
Mike:
Excuse me breaking in here but YOU (not YOU personally) should _take
care about all the guys there, that send all the newest german(& european) s/w
to the USA to let it be cracked!_ This is becomming more & more prevalant here
as u.s. developers are starting to take a stand and the idiots feel there is no
problem (perceived or otherwise) with craking a prg that has no (c) here! Sort
of like the Thom Templemann thing in reverse!
Ena
ok, we are not in Italy, where there is *no* copyright at all, but the problem
is about the same.
Should I go to law (I don't know the excact word) and tell them, that my best
informationsrecources are pirates? I will loose those recources and what will I
earn?
I think, that you overseas have the same problems as well! And don't forget one
thing: the money is worth about a quater of you money!{_ I mean: If a program
costs 100 US$ than the people in the US will buy it, even it it's not that
good. If it cost's about US$ 25 in W-Germany the people think about buying it
andcheck if it's worth it! Yes they really think! And where whould I sell?
Selling hardware is pretty easy, because it might not be copied! That's why our
company began with selling hardware (we sold a lot of RAM-BOards).
-Mike
The buying power of any currency is not an issue. If someone steals he is a
thief.
By definition, they wouldn't crack programs if there weren't any protected
programs. But would they still pirate, if there were no protected programs? I
don't see your point.
These messages have been marked
for reading with the RM Function
You, and your users, are promoting piracy. Their is no excuse for it, and it's
sickening. You can't explain away your "sources" guilt by giving them credit
for advising you on various program's worth; You need to re-examine your
premises before you try and justify theft. –Ben–
Ben,
As you know, I'm very anti-pirate..so please read this with that in
mind…I am NOT condoning piracy in any way, shape or form.
With that said…and understanding that Mike is trying to translate his
thoughts in German to text in English, I think that he's being quite upfront
with the reality of what goes on in Europe..especially W. Germany. He has
stated his personal opposition to piracy. He's a distributor and piracy costs
him money…so that's understandable. However, the facts of life there are
that piracy is rampant. What I understand him to be saying is that folks here
in the US send folks there software to crack. He knows some of these crackers,
or at least folks who have stolen software. These people demonstrate (give,
whatever) that software to him. That's one of his methods of finding out what
software is available.
I don't think he is condoning piracy. I think he is using what limited
resources he has available to him to decide what to get distribution rights on,
translate the text and manuals, advertise and publish. Telling those resources
he won't look at their software because it is stolen would do about as much
good as swatting 1 fly.
At least he gets feedback from the folks with the stolen software as to
their thoughts on the usefullness of the software…whether it would be worth
it to try to get those distribution rights.
It's certainly not the ideal system of software evaluation…but it
would seem it's the only one available to him as the US Publishers don't seem
willing to assist the European distributors….or that's what I've read from
his messges.
Don
thanx Don.. but one more point:
over here (perhaps you know it) the distributors (because the salesnumbers are
*not* as big as in the states) have to sell to customers as well as to dealers!
Dealers want to get cheap products they can sell high. The other distributors
do not sell to dealers and advertise with low level pricing and *no* support!
How to survive?? The customers come to the dealer and ask for a program -> the
dealer finds some pricesheet of (perhaps CompuStore) a distributor -> the
customers tells the dealer that he's to expensive because in the ad of …
there is a better pricing -> the dealer tells the customer, that he will give
the customer a preview with a demonstration! (he does it) the customers goes
home and calls the distributor of the ad and orders the program (he now can be
shure that this product is what he needs).
But the story goes on: the dealer tells his distributor that he's to expensive
and should go for a better pricing….. what now?????
And last not least the distributors (*not me*) are fighting themselves with
(perhaps you've heared of the story about Atlantis) bad messages. One goes to
the AmiExpo and tells every producer/publisher that Atlantis has got no more
money and is nearly bankrupped (I think that's written totaly wrong). Five
minutes later the man from Atalntis is going to the same producer/publ. and
tells him, that he's here and he is not bankrupped… puh…
But one thing as well: Yes, those guys (2 or three) have cracked or pirated
software but they do not know who deprotects them (if they are) they just
recieve it and test it for their own needs.
This guy (<CB>) is one of those, he is developer and writes some software for
the german market.. nothing too big.. just for his personal needs and looks at
the software he gets.. he sais: "I't the word biggest beta-tester" and that's
what he does, he looks at the sw and throws it away if it's not what he needs.
If he needs it, he buys it and that's the way nearly everybody over here is
doing it… not piracy (in it's original meaning) but looking, testing making
decisions, throwing away or buying!
Don; he is making use of stolen goods to further his own livlyhood. Probably
with the sweat of many of _your_ freinds brows. How can you excuse this? Your
serve: –Ben–
I'd be damn afraid to send my commercial product to Europe for distribution.
With their incredible rate of piracy there – you're just asking for trouble –
as the cracked stuff there gets back here in a hurry – so it just adds
additional sources of pirated software. There have to be other ways of doing
business other than looking at a pirated copy of someone's program – then
calling them and saying you want to distribute their stuff in Europe.
Marlene
Isn't that basically the same rationalization that people here use about
getting a pirated copy first to see if the pgm is worth buying???
as I said, I just test any program (if it's at a dealer or anywhere) before I
buy any program or try to sell it.
For me it's not easy to take care about the german market over here. Buying the
wron soft- and hardware means my ruin. So I look around for good stuff. I can
not afford coming overseas everytime there is a show or an exhibition. As well
I can not afford calling the american developers/publishers all the time,
because they only think about big salesnumbers. If I don't recieve a democopy
or any more informative paper than in the advertisements I must look for
prereleases on fish-disks or anywhere else!
If you think, that I have and use stolen programs than you're wrong. I use only
5 programs and they are only originals. Ok, I do not use the originals, but the
deprotected versions of those. but I bought the originals and I don't like to
enter a password or the originaldisk using those. So I like the 'better'
versions of the originals!
I don't give credit to my users (which users? I'm a salesman) or tell every-
body about my sources, but I allways know which programs can be sold and which
not (I mean overseas).
I admire all those american distributors who can call all their customers/
dealers and sell programs just by talking 30 seconds to them.. and after one
day they sold about 100 copies of any kind of software… If you believe it or
not, everybody who can't afford buying 4 wordprocessors he can't use will look
for his wordprocessor and buy it… but he will look for the real one he can
use and not one of the bad ones, even if the advertisements tell something else
(don't they ever do?). If you were a student withour lot's of money, you can go
to C-A and get discount or even go to wordperfect and get discount. Not over
here: having an a1000 means selling it used and buying an A2000 without
discount or buying Wordperfect for US$ 450. Could you afford that????
No, I don't want to support piracy at all, I just know what's going on and why!
-Mike
Mike — by doing _anything_ that encourages, even in a roundabout way, pirates
and their ilk, you are doing a disservice to the Amiga community. Being a
dealer/distributor is a responsible position that should be entered into by
those with the resources to do it in a legal manner… you are using stolen
goods to further your own business and welfare — not a thing that evinces
respect from those in this country, where these actions are defined to be
criminal — and rightly so, in my mind. If I, as a software developer for the
Amiga, could only have produced our products by making use of stolen code (even
if I then wrote my own similar code), would I be jsutified? NO! (justified)
You, as a dealer, have ONE "respectable" path open to you, and that is to take
advantadge of the legal paths available, period. As far as your use of
deprotected copies of your programs goes, I have no problem with that. I think
copy protection is just as much a crime against the user as piracy is against
the source. You bought those programs, and you every right to mangle them as
you please, as long as you only use the program to further yourself. That is
the implied covenant that is created when you purchase software. The moment a
piece of software leaves your hands for anothers, you then go from user to
thief. And that includes when you accept software in the other direction, and
it includes when you use opinions and/or non-opinions from thieves. The
technical term for this is an accessory to a crime. –Ben–
yes.. france is using SECAM. poor guys there..
concerning the hard words i'm using: it was not me, i was just the mailbox for
one developer i know over here.. his name is <CB> or Christian Balzer. He
really takes care about a lot of products and wnat to tell EVERYBODY what
should be done better.. in the next release(es).. it's my opinon as well, but
he wrote this letter..
I'm really happy recieving a lot of your replies, knowing that you care about
us..
-Mike
Aren't the French Amiga's using the same type of RGB monitors used in the rest
of Europe with Amigas? In the US, I think over 90% of Amiga users have analog
RGB monitors – is that also the case in Europe, or are there more people using
television monitors?
depends on their money.. most now buy the amiga with the 1081 (now it's 1084)
monitor You're right, it's RGB. but the monitors may be used as tv-stations and
so they display different pagesizes.
-Mike
I'd wish the PAL chips were available in the US and all Amiga's would work with
500 line displays! Guess they would have had to do some work to make it
compatible with both NTSC and PAL using only software, but it would have been
nice.
yes, I guess so, there would be some problems less for the developers! But
talking about PAL – I think you did mention the PAL-screen in TxED!
-Mike
My, my, we are acting quite nice to an admitted pirate! Let's have a show of
hands here. How many people think this guy will buy the program once the bugs
are fixed? 1/2 🙂
{_ sorry Ena,
if _you_ think, that I'm a pirate, than you did not understand the whole thing
at all! A lot of people here have pirated versions of programs, but they don't
use them… ok, that will not help anybody (even it cuts me off the market),
but I'm happy of knowing people who really know what's needed! If you did not
ever develope or sell programs, that you did never think of updates or good
service at all. If all the guys here who know what a good programs means are
pirates, I can't help it, I {_need their informations and ideas – and they are
sometime better than just the people that say: I don't like this program! I
will never buy it! At once there must be some bugs fixed and then we will look
ahead!
No, I want to sell! And if you don't understand my problems selling software in
w-germany, I can't help you at all!
I want to make some kind of support an *everybody* gets this kind of
information and ideas for upgrading and fixing bugs from me. If you don't want
some upgrades or better programs, than just buy programs, where you know that
they are really bad! I will not buy or sell them! But you can use them and get
crazy about the bad support! It's my job making purposes to developers. But I
only do it for selling better, not only for my personal use! I will make no
purposes for bad programs, where I know, that they never sell over here!
All the time when I visited softwaredevelopers in the states I had to wait,
until they had time (some exeptions) and did not want to give any support or
understand the situation. Now I'm back and everybody is looking for somebody
who gives him advises how to make changes on the software. I also talked about
piracy: the said, that they will never make softwareprotection come true. Ok,
that's their thing, but if I know, that a good program will not sell in
Germany, because the pirates will get it before I get it, I just leave it and
don't even think about selling.
Software in Germany must have some kind of protection, because there is no free
update available and if there are problems, the dealer must support it. If the
dealer does not earn enough money than he will not make any kind of support –
even he will not advertise or take the program!
PROBLEM: Getting discount, a distributor has to take a lot of pieces! Taking
just some, he will not get discount for advertisement! But the developer or the
american distributor is looking for big sales-numbers! Over here nobody will
make advertisements (that the distributor/dealer) can afford taking some more
for checking the market (I mean the american people will not support their
european *partners* in advertisement).
So, taking a lot of pieces (perhaps withou{_t having seen the program) and
making advertisement is dangerous! If the distributor does not know when the
program will be released or if it's already selling in the usa, it's dangerous
as well, because most times (I remember FACC) the pirated version of the
program is through all germany, *before* I recieve it!
And don't forget the price-war of the distributors over here! If you make sup
support and take some more money than the rest, you will not sell a piece.
Making a good price disables a good support!
What do you think, you would do, eh?
-Mike
I did re-read it. The person said they saw these things in a pirated version,
but said "they" would buy it for real if these bugs were fixed. I interpret
"they" as "the person who wrote the message." We could always ask… 🙂
Slander insurance? We aren't taking the networks that seriously, are we?
have you got some ideas what I should do against those people who crack (don't
pay)? I don't even really know it, because they could have bougt it anywhere
else!
What are you (not personally) doing against pirates?
-Mike
Until there is a better way to deal with distribution of software,
IE via satellite as "pay per download" or paid for by advertising
like commercial television, the only thing that will really help
with piracy is to change the attitudes of people that steal
software.
.
I think that in particular it is important to develop closer
ties between developers and users across national borders. Now{_
I think a lot of the piracy in Europe is because there is not
a close enough relationship between the developers and users. I've
done what I can to encourage Europeans to send back registrations
and comments on how we can write better software for them; but
so far we only get about 5% of the overseas registrations back,
as compared with 50% of the US and 20% of the Canadian registrations.
That was a particular shame because I just sent out a free update
to about 50 TxEd V1.31 owners to fix a bug that got out on the
first couple hundred copies of V1.31 … of those 200 copies,
50 were shipped in the USA, and 150 in Canada and Europe. Of the
50 registration cards I got back, 42 were from the US, and only
5 were from Canada and Europe. That means there are still 145
copies in Canada and Europe that I can't possibly fix because
I don't know who owns 'em.
…cheath
that is right. I've got one thing to say:
Selling you product is not *very* good, because the money the distr./dealer
earns is not very high! (I said, I like it) Putting one advertisement in one
magazine that enables a german distr./dealer to make updates will bring you and
him big respect and more customers!
I know, because we are the exclusive distr. for DesignText and encouraged to
make the updates (including serialnumbers) for them over here! That will bring
us a lot of german customers and people who will be very glad getting service!
-Mike
Mike,
Are you saying that designtext is currently available in Germany?
Regards, Larry.
no, but i signed up with DesignTech and am very happy with the betarelease .93.
I expect DT in the first weeks of December over here!
-Mike
Mike,
Don't bet on it. One of the programers is no longer with DesignTech (Kris),
and last we heard from Brian, it may not be out until spring sometime.
Regards, Larry.
thanx.. I heared about it, but I thought that would not be a big problem for
Brian to take care about this.
Too bad that a well done program takes so long (even if it's just a short time
before it's official release) to be released and finished. I (I think nobody)
likes those things at all.
-Mike
Sounds promising. I tried some advertising on Great Brittan, and
didn't get enough response to justify repeating it … and the
only magazines I've heard about from Germany were rather expensive
to risk not getting enough return on.
.
How are you handling the DesignText distibution? What about
updates after the sale? If you'd like to set up a similar
arrangement with TxEd Plus, we would be interested-
…cheath
there are some (I think of 2) magazines that are sold about 60.000 times in
W-Germany concerning *only* the AMIGA! I advertise there in 3 colours and half
a page (if I hope to earn enough money with the ad in there). The risk is not
too big, if there are tests in the same release of the magazine…. that's not
all, but a bit of my policy! (I will not tell all, because there are others
interested in sales to W-Germany as well without being interested to sign up
with me) All in all the advertisement and the reports depend on the products
and the magazines (why should I put an ad in a magazine that's only read by 50$
customers????)
-Mike