#3d Studio Bugs
25 messages in this thread
As someone who LOVES 3D studio (in 20 years it has come the closest to the
main reason I got into computers) I have one major complaint (this message)
and a slight difficulty (to follow).
My complaint is, despite how wonderful this program is (and worth every
penny of the 3K I spent for what amounts to a hobby for me) I wish the
#$#%# thing wouldn't crash so much! You're working on release 3 — I wish
you'd clean up the bugs in version 2 first.
As a programmer of long standing, I KNOW that some of those problems are
probably hard to track down — but they obviously exist for more than just
me (the review I read in one of the major mags mentioned them as well) and
saving the file every 5 minutes is a major PITA (but an absolute MUST,
given the delicate nature of 3D).
I'd hope for relief with 2.01 — but as I said, I've been in PCs for over
15 years and know far better…
Mike:
I don't have any crashes on my 486/33 none… zero. Now, how do you suppose
that these are for sure bugs?
C#
No one, of course, can know FOR SURE (although a programmer can be pretty
confident) but they sure FEEL like bugs. For instance, I can consistently
lock the system up if I choose a material as soon as I load a mesh in.
Also, the system seems overly sensitive to movement of both the mouse and
the keyboard. If I press keys too fast or try and move the mouse while the
system is "thinking" then I can get a lockup about 1 out of 20 times.
The system does crash during rendering as well, and I have a file that, if
anyone is interested, I'd be glad to post that I'm sure will crash their
system as well. None of these things are so consistent that I could
suspect TSR conflicts or Video Driver incompatibilities — but sure as
shooting SOMETIME during a two or three hour session I'll experience at
least one or two crashes or lockups.
But finally, I base my diagnose of a "bug" on the reviewer who also
mentioned like crashes (his response was "it least 3D teaches you to save
your file often!" Obviously I'm not alone, even if in the minority.
As a writer, I can tell you that some "journalists" do not properly
research their subject before writing about it. Maybe they're just a little
bit lazy, or maybe they just need the money–or maybe they really don't
understand their subject. I don't know if any of these factors were the
case in the article you're referring to, but I _do_ know the author of that
article, and I can tell you that he was wrong.
If you're having constant crashes with 3D Studio, there's something wrong
with your system. We'll be glad to check out your sample file if you'll
email it to us. But you can believe one of two things: either your system
is causing the crashes, or 3D Studio is causing the crashes, and several
people on this forum are telling you that 3D Studio is not causing the
crashes. And they're a lot more objective than I.
– Jack
Mike:
I still would bet that there is a memory conflict or a TSR conflict… are
you using a Mircosoft Mouse, or a clone?
C#
Nope, it's MS mouse, Sony CD, Zeos 486/50, NEC 4D — nothing really
unusual.
Mike:
Well, I would jerk the SCSI controller for the Sony, along with the driver
from config.sys and see if the problem goes away. If it does, then you can
move the interrupts on the Sony so they don't conflict with (a guess…)
your graphics card.
C#
I guarantee you that you've got hardware problems… exactly the same as
the "reviewer" in New Media that you're referencing. The reason why you're
not experiencing them with Windows and NT is because they use the DPMI
method of memory management, which is way different than the VCPI method
that Phar Lap uses. Phar Lap is much more "sensitive".
It's looking like you're getting enough help from folks on the forum to
start working them out, however. Good luck!
– G
You and Greg Macnicol (the author of that article) are actually the only
people I know of who've ever had crash problems with 3DS. And _his_
problems were because of flakey hardware.
If you have sporadic crash problems, I can guarantee you that your system
environment isn't robust. (and I'm sure that plenty of other members of
this forum will corraborate that)
If you have a specific reproducible crash problem, please send a
description of how to reproduce it to me right away and I'll let you know
if it's for real.
The truth is, 3DS is the most robust 3D animation system ever developed on
any platform, and the only people we've seen who've had problems with it
have underlying hardware problems. We're extremely proud of how solid the
program is. For example, there are 6 people up at Autodesk who've been
using it full time since 2.0 came out and they've NEVER crashed it… but
they're using Gateway's, Compaq's, and AST's…
So, please be more specific, and maybe we can help you out a bit.
– G
Well, I'm using a Zeos that has NEVER failed me under any other
circumstances and I have run Windows, NT Beta, and even OS/2 under
different and sundry conditions. Now, I don't doubt that, given a certain
set of hardware specs (and it seems to me that most of you "professionals"
use a pretty standard set) you may indeed have a robust system, but mine is
pretty "typical" of the average user. Besides, AAPro works fine on it, so
it can't be my system, right :>?
No, I'm willing to admit that within the SCSI, Video Card, Bios,
interrupts, etc. that there may be something which 3DS doesn't like — but,
as I've said, I do run a LOT of software on my system without experiencing
these kinds of difficulties. Still, I'll post that mesh if you like and if
it compiles perfectly for you guys then I'll humbly retract my comments
publically (but if so, would still expect some kind of assistance as to
where to look for problems).
Mike:
We are running 1 AST and 9 very generic clone 486/50's with 3DS in a rather
serious production environment, and yes, we have had a few problems with
the systems. The major ones were ALL memory related, and using QA-PLUS
and/or CheckIt found them reliably. We had a flakey network board (flakey
because it worked for everyone in the office except for Martin Foster, but
when we put him on a different machine, that went away also! (are you
listening, Martin?) The other troubles were with two Hercules Graphics
Station cards which would crash every time we did a Safe Frame, but that
was fixed in the 2.01 release.
If you are having a problem with one mesh, it could be that you got a
glitch in the file, and when the program hits it, depending on where you
are in the system, you get unpredictable results. Try to DXF the entire
file out, exit 3DS to clear it out totally, then start up and load the DXF
file. Or load the DXF file into AutoCAD if it still gives you problems.
One more thing – we did have a problem with a hard disk drive controller
being pushed too fast for the system. By slowing down the bus speed a
hair, it worked fine. With the virtual memory system, this could be a
problem. Do you ever run AutoCAD on the system? If it is a hardware
problem, both programs will probably crash in a related manner. Try
running in pure VGA (yucch!) mode for a few days to see if it is a flakey
ADI driver.
This is not a word processor, as you have pointed out. It is a leading
edge graphics program, and it will stress your hardware to the max. But
with the support on this forum, I am confident that the problem will be
identified and solved. Upload the mesh, upload your Autoexec.bat and
config.sys files, and the exact details of your hardware, and hundreds of
people will give their time and energy (for free, no less) to help you get
it fixed. And if it is a bug in the program, there will be a 2.02 version
to fix it! (right, GY?) Good Luck,
Greg Pyros
Greg,
I think my aura my have conflicted with that network card and over-stressed
it <g>.
Ta-ta.
Martin
Martin:
Aura? Is that what you call it? Must be the English translation… <g>
Greg
Actually Greg, it's a greek word originally so I thought you'd be familiar
with it 🙂
It originates in Glasgow, "Aura pubs are closed".
Martin
You bet, Greg. New versions are my life. My very reason for existing.
When I wake up in the morning, I've got little numbers and decimal points
floating around in my head (with the bees and the spiders).
– G
Please send me the mesh and I'll give it a shot.
The big question is: Can you use any other Phar Lap software, like AutoCAD
386 release 10/11/12, or extended version of Lotus 123, for example.
– G
Mike,
I don't believe I have *ever* had a crash in 3D Studio Rel 2. Sounds more
like a memory problem. All large PharLap-based programs that use floating
point, paging and very large amounts of RAM can stress many systems beyond
what they would see with other programs.
An example: Early 386-16 CPUs had a problem when you used a combination
of virtual memory with floating point processing. AutoCAD was the first
application to use these features. Thus, it crashed on all these machines.
Autodesk got a bad rap, when it wasn't their fault. All the users knew was
AutoCAD crashed, while none of their other apps did.
I'll bet something 3D Studio does causes problems with your machine.
Perhaps you have a bad RAM chip at the top of RAM, or overlapping memory
addresses.
Ken ///
I'd be more willing to admit to a possible bad RAM if I weren't "stressing"
my system with other such software, like NT and OS/2 (and no, I'm not
running them currently, but have run them quite a bit). The RAM is all
new, but if there is something wrong do you have a suggestion as to how I
could check such a thing? And besides, why would 3DS work MOST of the time
(including some horrendously large animations that have to be taking every
bit of memory) and not others?
BTW, one good way for ME to crash 3D2 is to invoke it, run for a while,
exit and the run AAPRO. When I come back to 3D2 it always seems less
stable, and my hunch up to recently was that the memory was so fragmented
at that point that things were at the edge (so I'd end up rebooting).
I have a brand X, genuine Taiwanese clone 486 — about the cheapest
computer I could find — and I've never had 3DS crash. Before my current
clone, I used another very El Cheapo 386 clone and never had a crash.
Alec Jason
I have run 3D Studio on almost every Compaq computer model with various
configurations and except for 1 minor glitch with the Pharlap Extender I
haven't had any "crashes" either. Everytime I have worked a customer issue
that has 3D Studio crashes it has been something defective in the memory
system of the PC. Do you use any other programs that run in protected mode
or use Pharlap's extender? Do you use Windows without any lockups?
As I said, I run Windows (when I'm not using 3d2) all the time without
mishaps. Heck, I even beta tested NT without a problem (OS/2 is another
story altogether — can I add my voice to those who want an NT version of
3D2?).
Still, as I said, I'm not going to tell you that my system might not be
"participating" in the problem — but just like a marriage, it takes two to
tango, and NO lockup is soley the hardware's fault. Now, if my system were
VERY substandard I would be more inclined to suspect it primarily but…
Still, it's heartening to hear so many others with so many positive
experiences. As someone who is running a very vanilla type system, I don't
know that there's anything more I can do in any case.
Mike, I just have to put my .02 in here. My machine, a Tangent, is about as
fully loaded as it can get. All slots are taken up by a scanner, SCSI board
(for a CD ROM), 3 parallel ports, 3 serial ports, a sound card, VGA card
and drive controller. And yet with all this junk on the machine, 3DS has
_NEVER_ crashed. In fact, it is just about the most bulletproof program I
have. Perhaps you should have that new RAM you mentioned checked out. All
it takes is one bad bit to screw things up.
Mike K.
Sorry to hear about your problems with 3DS. I have a fairly loaded
Gateway and I haven't had any crashes – that is I haven't had any after I
put more memory in my machine and got all my DMAs and IRQs sorted out.
Before that, look out! I now use it for hours every session with not a
glitch.
This may sound crazy, but have you tried reseating all the chips,
simms, and boards in the system? I've fixed more flaky computers than I
can remember that way. As things heat and cool, mechanical mis-connections
can do very strange things.
Another thing I always do with problems is to temporarily reduce
the machine to its simplest state, with respect to both hardware and
software, and see if the problem is still there. If not, a little sleuthing
will then roust the culprit.
(I wish someone, PharLap, Autodesk, Yost gods, etc., would write a
system stress program which would do test out the extended memory and the
protected mode switching, etc. that goes on in 3DS, AutoCad, and AniPro.
Then we all might be able to find and destroy problems a little easier.)
Post your software and hardware configuration, as Greg Pyros
suggested – don't forget to physically look at the jumpers on every board
and recheck and list the resources for each (IRQs, I/O addresses, etc.)
JKJ
PS. One more thought. Do you know anyone close by whose copy of 3DS you
can borrow (with lock) to check out your system? There is a remote
possiblity of a problem with your disks. If possible, install to an area
of your disk which is different from where 3DS is now.
Gawd, Mike, if you want delicate, try Wavefront! Even on the most stable
SGI systems, it sometimes decides to take a trip to another place and time.
I urge you to look at your hardware. 3DS has been robust as a linebacker
here.
Regards,
Terry