#500 -> 600 a downgrade?
31 messages in this thread
Does anybody know what the DEAL is with the 600? I bought the thing
because my son is interested in programming. He and I were also attracted
by the promise of speech synthesis. Now that I have bought it, I'm finding
out some of the things which apparently came with the 500 which have been
REMOVED from the 600.
– There is no BASIC with the 600.
– There is no ARexx with the 600 (though my dealer assured me otherwise
before
I bought it!)
– Now I find that the SAY utility, which implements speech synthesis, does
not
come with the 600. This in spite of the fact that the Workbench manual
that
comes with the 600 claims that it's there, in the Utilities drawer. All
the
OTHER utilities it talks about are there, but not SAY.
My dealer (the one who misled me about ARexx) seemed completely surprised
when I told him the 600 had no SAY. Now I'm wondering if the 600 even
really has the text-to-speech capability advertised.
I sure would like to get an inventory of exactly what else is missing from
the 600 disks, as compared to those of the 500. I don't feel I can trust
my dealer to give me reliable information about this. Can anyone here shed
some light? Thank you for any information.
– Rick Brown
Rick:
The 600 is a brand new machine for the US… some of things you have said
suprise me as well… so I wouldn't be too hard on your dealer… why not
go back to him/her and see what can be worked out?
Rick,
I can't give you exact information as to what comes with the A600, but
in general, I consider it to be a downgrade from the A500, and not an
upgrade. I do know that it does NOT include the numeric keypad like the
A500 does. I also believe the A600 has a RAM card slot, which the A500
does not. Finally, I think the A600 can be hooked directly up to a TV and
the A500 cannot. Please verify this with other users here.
My impression of the A600 was that it was set up to be primarily used
as a game machine.
Dom Fontana
<– Sent from New York via AutoPilot –>
Just to point out, the "ram card" slot in the A500 is actually a PCMIA
slot… ORIGINALLY PCMIA was meant for ram cards, and solid state "hard
drive" type devices (really fast, 20 or so megs).
However, it has no become a defacto type of standard amongst portable
PC's… As such there are several products out already… One is a
14.4kbps fax/modem… kind of nice…
That PCMIA slot may end up leaving the A600 more expandable than an A500 in
the long run… Just because of the number of companies developing for
PCMIA….
Also, the A600 is setup for an internal (IDE) hard drive.
Its not really a "downgraded" A500.. its more like a down-sized A500…..
I don't think it has any "less" power or capability than the A500, just
different strengths….
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Joe,
Your points about the A600 are well taken, but the A600 doesn't have
the 86-pin expansion slot, so you can't use any of the A500 hardware
upgrades. However, as you said, companies may start designing upgrades for
use with the RAM slot.
Dom Fontana
<– Sent from New York via AutoPilot –>
I agree there… But maybe somebody will invent an adaptor to go from the
PCMIA connnector to the standard 86pin amiga connector….
Afterall, if you can put ram or a hard drive on a PCMIA slot, then the pins
SHOULD be there to make an 86pin adaptor, right?
Thats a question for a hardware guy though…
Personally, I'm thinking A1200/4000 anyways 🙂
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Joe,
The _really_ interesting PCMCIA peripheral that's available is an Ethernet
interface. An A1200 equipped with one of those has some exciting
possibilities.
David
David,
Ethernet is what I wanted to see in a PCMCIA card. Who makes it?
Malcolm
Malcolm,
I just saw it yesterday in a magazine at work. I'll have to get back to
you on the specifics, but it's a company in S. California.
David
OK thanks, David.
Malcolm
I agree… I'm awaiting an affordable infra-red adaptor… Picture it.. two
portable PC's.. or two amigas with PCMIA and these two adaptors…
Networking simply with now wires…. Meet up on the road with someone and
transfer files… Get back to your desk at the office.. set the computer
down and it links to your desktop…
So many toys, so little time 🙂
Joe Flanagan
A&a Printers
Don't feel too bad, the say command is missing from the 4000 as well! I
guess they dropped it from WB 3.0. My only guess as to why is that WB 3.0
was planned with DSP in mind and of course the DPS chips are not ready
yet.
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
The DSP chip has been "ready" for quite a while (it's not a CBM part).
However, the board onto which it goes is not yet completed.
Narrator.device is missing because of a contractual problem between CBM
and the developer. CBM fully expects to be worked out shortly and it will
return to the WB disk.
-sja
Rick: I can understand the frustration you and your son are having with
the 600, but maybe some of us can help. First, Microsoft Basic was removed
from the Amiga line since the introduction of the 2.04 OS. The main reason
this was done was because Microsoft did a very poor job on the AmigaBasic
and was buggy to say the least. Plus it wasn't coded properly to work with
the newer generation of 32-bit Motorola CPU's. However, since the 600 has
the standard 68000 it should run AmigaBasic just fine. I wouldn't see any
problem with your dealer giving you a copy of AmigaBasic, or getting it
from someone in a local user group. If you have the current generation of
the Amiga OS (2.04 and above) then Arexx should be on your disks unless
someone purposly removed it. See if there is a program called "RexxMast"
in the "System" drawer located on your boot disk. This program needs to be
executed to initialize Arexx, and it probably is being executed by the
startup-sequence file located in your "S" directory. You might check this
file to see if indeed RexxMast is being executed in the startup script. If
not, the easiest way to get it started is to click on the icon when you
need Arexx capability, or drag the icon into your "WBStartup" drawer to
have it execute each time you boot up the 600. One thing you should know,
Arexx is not like some other languages where you load up the program and
it comes back with it's own screen and gives you a "Ready" prompt. The
language and scripting capabilities are there, but you have to bring up a
text editor of some type and start writing the programs.
John,
Any dealer who would "giv[e] you a copy of AmigaBasic" should have their
dealership yanked from them immediately. Piracy is rampant enough without
advocating that dealers get in on the action. AmigaBasic does not belong
to the dealer to give away.
-sja
So CBM is going to come down hard on some dealer that gives away a copy of
AmigaBasic? Let's be real Steve. I'm not advocating that a dealer should
give away software, and he sure as h*ll is not going to do something where
he would loose profits. But to support a legitimate owner of the system
software (2.04) with AmigaBasic, that's not even being sold anymore, is
not hurting CBM. If CBM had any interest in AmigaBasic, they would have
had it updated and improved a long time ago.
John,
Is it okay that I steal something of yours that (in my opinion) you don't
want anymore?
Theft is theft. AmigaBasic was licensed to CBM by MicroSoft. It is not a
dealer's right to give away a copy of something that he has no legal right
to give. If a dealer does so, he is advocating and practicing software
theft and should be prosecuted as such.
Oh for pete's sake! So tell the fella to get a copy of 1.3 and copy
AmigaBasic off that.
Settle down.
-DonM – On Autopilot from 1Q1 –
Altitude hold is on; now all's I need is coupled nav!
Don,
Unless a dealer still has 1.3 Enhancer kits in stock that is going to be
tough to do as it's no longer a product. AmigaBasic is not licensed for WB
2.0.
AmigaBasic may be available for sale separately and there are a couple of
other 3rd party alternatives. For anyone to hand out non-original copies
of anything to which they don't own distribution rights to is theft.
Ok, dropped. I've taken the high road too many times to continue
comments. A little on the stuffy side myself, sometimes. <grin>
-DonM – On Autopilot from 1Q1 –
Altitude hold is on; now all's I need is coupled nav!
Suggesting that the user PURCHASE 1.3 and copy AmigaBasic over to his
system is one thing. That wasn't the issue being addressed.
We will not condone the suggestion of one user to another that they pirate
software. Such remarks will always be pointed out for what they are. It's
up to the enduser to determine what to do.
See my reply to Steve.
C= was right in dropping the poor slow, buggy thing.
-DonM – On Autopilot from 1Q1 –
Altitude hold is on; now all's I need is coupled nav!
OK Steve, just to make you happy I'll sell that fellow my copy of
AmigaBasic (LEGAL ORIGINAL VERSION) for $1.00 plus postage. There, feel
better now 8^)
John,
That's legal — what you were suggesting before was not.
John: Thanks for you're helpful comments. You're right of course–ARexx
was in fact on my Workbench disk. I was too hasty when I first looked for
it, and didn't yet know about "files without icons". When I showed "all
files", the Rexxc drawer was there. However, this leaves me even MORE
upset with my dealer: when I first hooked up the machine at home, I called
my dealer and told him I couldn't find ARexx anywhere. He went away for a
few minutes, then came back and said "Gee, I guess you're right! There's
no Arexx with the 600." He then SOLD me a copy of ARexx for $25!
The documentation that comes with the 600 has ONE SENTENCE about ARexx,
which says that one needs to run RexxMast first. Just the latest example
in the trend that's been going on for years, to keep users increasingly
insulated from programming, and to make readily-available programming
doucmentation increasingly scarce. As one who uses computers PRIMARILY for
programming, I find it really frustrating!
Well if I were you Rick I would go have a talk with that dealer. If he
doesn't know that Arexx is part of the System software now, or sold you
the Arexx package just to make a sale, then he sounds pretty shady to me.
But you may wish to keep the Arexx package. Bill Hawes is a very good
programmer and he frequents CompuServe quite often to help with Arexx
programming problems. I highly suggest you pick up the book "Using Arexx
on the Amiga", ISBN 1-55755-114-6 printed by Abacus. It's just the book
your son would need to get started using Arexx. Also comes with a disk
full of example programs, Hypertext reference guide, and a bunch of other
goodies. By the way, I was chastized for telling you that you should ask
your dealer for a copy of AmigaBasic, so if you really want it, Email me
your address and I'll send you a LEGAL version of it for the cost of the
postage. I've got a couple of extra AmigaBasic packages laying around from
systems I've had through the years.
I can understand your frustration in not getting some kind of Basic
programming language with your system. CBM should have had Microsoft
revise and update AmigaBasic a long time ago, but apparently they felt
that beginners could handle Arexx and probably didn't want to spend the
money.
John,
I disagree. I think CBM should have hung MicroSoft for AmigaBasic. They
MUST have known they were doing it wrong. It gives one pause….
Besides, MS did a BAD job with AmigaBasic and Bill did a GREAT job with
ARexx, which is much more capable than AmigaBasic anyway.
Malcolm
Rick,
I reviewed the A600 for my magazine and that deficiency WRT to ARexx was
my biggest complaint (and the only one I can remember right now). Just a
list of keywords with samples would have been a big help. Alas. :/
For good ARexx info, check "Using ARexx on the Amiga" by Nick Sullivan and
Chris Zamara.
Malcolm
I don't really know the deal on the A600, but as far as the Say utility
goes, speech synthesis is within the A600s capabilities. There is a
better Say type utility available here on CIS (I believe) called speech
toy 2 (do a find on speech maybe). It offers much better control of the
speech qualities. To see if the A600 is indeed set up to offer speech,
you should look in the sys:devs directory for the narrator.device. If
that program is there all you need is speech toy 2.
Bill
BASIC
AmigaBasic, as you've heard, is best avoided. HiSoft Basic, which can
compile programs, is much better, and is almost 100% compatible with
AmigaBasic as well as IBMPC QuickBasic. The only problem you might have is
getting programs into ASCII format if they were already saved in
AmigaBasic's default file format. I'm quite happy with it, although I've
never been able to compile programs so that they run without the library.
The latest "AC's Guide" doesn't list this product–I hope it's not
discontinued. It was distributed by MichTron.
There is also True Basic, which was recently advertised at $15 (normally
$99). The only problem with it is that it uses syntax which is different
from Microsoft Basics found on most computers (and AmigaBasic among them).
There is also a limit of one statement per line, which makes for a bit of
work adapting most programs written for other Basics. The functionality of
TrueBasic is very good, and it's definitely worth $15 if that offer's still
good.
I've just bought AMOS Professional, which is also a good Basic-like
language. It's very good for the sounds and graphics needed for games, but
it can do any kind of program. The various other versions of AMOS are also
quite useable (and cheaper) that you may find are around. List price for
Pro appears to be $110.
SPEECH
I had an opportunity to talk to the V.P. Engineering from Commodore at
World of Commodore Amiga in Toronto. I asked if the speech was gone for
good. He said it was. Not many people really used it, and it only really
works in English whereas most Amiga sales are to non-English-speakers and I
guess Commodore couldn't justify continuing to pay the royalty. Someone
else asked, "What about handicapped people," and he said that Commodore
could send users to deal with the company directly for the files. There's
no special hardware for speech (which I was surprised at). It's purely a
software matter and the old files still work in my A500 that's now
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upgraded to WB 2.1.
You're best bet again, is to try to get an older version of Workbench
that someone's no longer using.
AREXX
Too bad there's not much detail on how to use it. When I bought my
A500, there wasn't even anything a full list of all the AmigaDOS commands.
Hopefully, you at least get that with the 600?
Neil