#IS PAR ANY GOOD????
28 messages in this thread
Hi to all Lightwave fiends… 🙂
I'm currently considering getting the DPS(?) Personal Animation Recorder for
doing Lightwave (3.0) animations for commercial (as in cable TV) work…
Can anyone out there in Toasterdom rate the PAR against a dedicatied
single-frame VTR, such as the EVO 9650??
Is the price really right?? It certaily APPEARS to be a better deal…
P.S. Anyone heard rumors about NewTek getting into the non-linear arena??
'Course that wouldn't be a huge suprise! 🙂
Your opinions are valued!
Regards,
Luke Montgomery
CompVid,
Greater Kansas City
Luke (Pat),
I own a Sony EVO 9650 and it works fantastically. Preroll is fairly
quick, dropouts are managable (if you record a few minutes into the
beginning of the tape) and I can output to tape an average of 1
second of animation every 8 minutes (or about 8 seconds/hour).
My only problem with it is the image quality. Not that the deck
produces poor video. It's just that Hi-8 is pretty much a great
quality CONSUMER format. My animations look great as first
generation, but I dub to 3/4" or VHS and everything goes pretty
noisy. Lack of good blacks, etc. Things seem to suddenly fall
somewhere between 20 and 85 IRE. I'm trying to compensate using my
TBC, but am not sure of the results right now.
I think the PAR option is a good one, though I do not own a PAR. If I
did, I'd still want to get a higher-level dedicated VTR (i.e. BetaCam
SP or Rewritable Laser Disc). But you could also assemble your entire
piece in a script within PAR and just shoot it out to whatever format
you need for your clients. I am currently pricing and debating about
the purchase of a new format for output myself. If you get a PAR, let
me know how you like it.
Do you have a PC? For a $1000 you get a better set-up. No special
harddrives needed, better editing. It's almost cheaper to buy a 486
with these new video boards, than a PAR on it's own.
What is this that's available on the MS-DOS machines? Is this
animation recorded directly to the PC board and played back fullspeed
24-bit? Fill us in please.
For $440 you get a better product on a PC machine. Full 30 FPS, not
24 bit but MPEG compression, just like DMI. This comes from Sigma
Designs, their competitors have been selling this type for $2000 and
Sigma shocked everyone with this price/performance.
When I saw it, it didn't have an official name. I think they want to
call it ReelMagic.
Interesting.. I'm using a 486-45 to write this right now… to what
PC solution were you referring as an alternative to the PAR???
Inquiring minds gotta know…
Probably the result of careless reading skills is my bet. I have
noticed a lot of folks not only reading between the line but going so
far as reading OVER the lines.
Very interesting. I would gladly buy "…these new video boards… For
a $1000…" if you could tell me which ones. The best I have seen to
date (On a PC) is 240x180x24bitx30fps and I would not swear that it
never missed a frame. I would love to play VideoToaster created
animations full screen on my PC. The PC Multimedia world would be in
heaven. The other problem is that the PC genlocks (Like RocTech's
RocGen) still do not produce the same quality output as the Toaster.
>>>PC genlocks (Like RocTech's RocGen) still do not produce the same quality
output as the Toaster. <<<<<
No, cheap genlocks like the RocTech don't compare well….but more expensive
framebuffer genlocks like the Illuminator Pro or Targa+ give you spectacular
quality Genlocking and S-Video too..as well as Chroma Key out etc…
You gets what you pays for ..
(xcept w/ the Toaster where you get more than what you pay for of course!)
SK.
(Except w/ the Toaster where you get more than what you pay for of course!)
My point exactly… to compete with the toaster on a PC requires that you use
low quality stuff. I am a long time PC believer, but when it came to doing
video, I went with the toaster!
My Magni VGA Producer Pro is quite a bargain @ $800… 1 Heck of a genlock!
Jerry
>Can anyone out there in Toasterdom rate the PAR against a dedicatied
>single-frame VTR, such as the EVO 9650??
I am NOT a expert but I have used a PAR board and even though I REALLY
didn't like the limited HDs available I still liked the results. It is a
real time saver compared to Single-Framing since it is played in real-time
and there is no need to make a HAM or DCTV preview.
I am planing on getting one myself if I ever get the money.
PMFJI, but I'm interested in some type of system like the PAR myself.
What about the JPEG artifacting? I saw one running at HTElectronics
(the local Toaster dealer), and all their demos (which were not the
best subject matter for these tests) showed an annoying level of
artifacting. Were they just boneheads, or will you _always_ have
some small amount of visible distortion along diagonal lines? (I'd
bet on the former, myself. – they had a big monitor with component
inputs, but they were feeding it with the composite out of the PAR
card!)
The demos that I have seen on the PAR were all real-time grabbed
video. This requires a higher compression ratio in order to write it
to disk on-the-fly. I have not seen ANY single frame animated
playback. I have played with ADPRO's JPEG and it looks real good at
15 to 1.
It's just that given what I saw at the dealer's, there were too many
artifacts for my taste. (Though, as I mentioned, their test renders seemed
to be chosen to maximize artifacting….)
Thanks,
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Were the demos you saw created single frames then one-by-one optimized
for best visual performance? Or were they simply digitized on the
fly from some video or laser of animations? I have not yet seen an
animation CREATED (what I mean here is that the PAR will compress
on-the-fly off of video or disc but at a very high compression rate
… when creating an animation frame by frame the PAR will compress
the image at the best possible playback quality given the known speed
of the hardware) with the PAR, everything has been digitized and it
does indeed show.
I know this may be splitting hairs but I am curious if what you have seen is
truly optimal performance. I know I haven't.
Jim Roof
I asked, and the sales geek did verify that one specific animation
had been rendered out from LW to the PAR directly (giving it the
'best' image quality). By the same virtue, it was just a
re-rendering of the Toaster Workstation flyby (yawn). They _had_
modified the objects and replaced the still video image on the little
monitors with moving video that had been digitized into the PAR –
that was kinda cool, and looked nice! The downside is that it showed
'noticable' JPEG artifacting along all the sharp diagonal lines of
the workstations as the camera moved by. (Now, of course if they'd
jazzed up the surface textures, I'd have probably had less trouble
noticing it, but that's another story. :^)
I did get to stare at some playback in DPS's SIGGRAPH booth, and it
looked great. I was still able to notice artifacting on single
frames, but when they were moving, it looked as good as an AVID 8000
I've seen in operation.
I'm curious about this _new_ board that was announced in Germany. I
can't remember the name, but it was offering PAL/NTSC
digitizing/playback for under $1000 Sounds good, eh?
Perhaps TOO good!
Jim
Regarding the DPS PAR…I've seen the product advertised for 1680.00
mail order. Does this include the Seagate 1/2 gig hard drive? If
not, the new Sanyo SF Capable deck looks to be a comparable
alternative. Or… what about the Digital Broadcaster32? It looks
like you could get into their system for about 5-6 K? Plus have full
non-linear editing.
I've always seen the drive sold seperately, so I'd _guess_ that price did
not include the hard drive.
I still haven't seen the Sanyo deck, so I can't say how well it performs.
Digital Broadcaster32?!? Didn't that used to be called Digital
EditMaster??? (At least for the last two years it has been vaporware?)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
The Digital Broadcaster32 Must have a 3000 or 4000 to run on. AND it's
highly recommended that there NOT be a Toaster running in it. 3k for
the DB32, For Audio the Sunrize16 is required at 1.2K, With both
installed, you'll need 18 Meg of RAM plus several gigs of Hard
Drives. Anti-Gravity products is exclusive distributor and I did see
it at WOC Pasedena in Sept., so it's no longer just VaporWare!
>PMFJI
Jump in anytime…
>What about the JPEG artifacting?
I guess there will always be `some' form of JPEG artifacting but I think
the question is, `Is it acceptable?'. This can only be answered by looking
at it oneself.
>I saw one running at HTElectronics and all their demos showed an annoying
>level of artifacting.
If you are capturing video there WILL be noticeable artifacting since it
is compressing the image sooo much but if you are using it as a 24-bit
Anim player then it is hardly noticeable. My friend showed us his demo
tape which he Single-framed and PAR and we couldn't tell which was S-F'ed
and which was PAR.
I have used a faulty unit (the drive was acting up) which wouldn't allow
us to use less compression and it was still VERY acceptable to us.
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
Erik:
I've had only one instance so far of artifacting with my PAR. That
was a tiny amount on a multi-logo flyby. The logo affected was an
NHL hockey team logo with fairly narrow spaced lines. I've been able
to use the m maximum quality settings for the Seagate drive. It's
very important to keep the drive well organized, and tips on this are
documented in the manual.
Like I told Luke, I was previously carting my system in to a TV
station and using my BCD5000 tied to a Sony D2. Now I use PAR on
demand with a 1" VTR and the results are as good if not better. I'm
working on some fairly complex anims right now, so it should put the
PAR to the test. I'll advise if there are any changes to my opinion
of the PAR.
Trent K. johnson ReAnimators
Thanks for the feedback! If you're using 1" and are happy with the
results, I'm sure I can get away with using it. :^)
I'm looking forward to being able to be able to get full previews at
30fps! Even HAM8 is too slow and jerky to be reliable for test renders.
BTW, I notice in another comment you say the quality is better than the
Toaster output? I assume this is because you can use the PAR to bypass the
NTSC Composite out of the Toaster, and instead go straight from RGB to
component? (I know of at least one person looking to go beyond the NTSC
color limitations.)
Thanks again,
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Erik:
RE: PAR output
Even the PAR's NTSC output is slightly better than the Toaster's, although it
mainly shows up on test gear. I have yet to try the component output, but but
we have a Sony Beta SP and should be testing it soon.
I just yesterday bought a DPS TBC IV for videocaptures. So far, I'm having d
some sort of sync problem getting the video into the PAR, but should be cleared
up with a call to DPS. Their tech support is quite good, since they've been
making time base correction equipment for many years. I'm very impressed with
their products and service.
Trent
The DPS PAR is IMHO absolutely fantastic. Paid for itself with the
1st job. I believe it is a quantum leap product. I now no longer
have to cart cart my computer around, and tie up a suite for a couple
of hours. I just rent a VPR-5 portable 1" recorder, spend 10 minutes
or so, and bang! Instant (that's Instant) Animation. The output is
noticably better than the Toasterr 's. I have also sucessfully sent
the output of the PAR into Toaster, keyed the animation over an
unused input, and thus generated keyable animation over super-black.
No more matte passes! I highly recommend this product! Next on the
list is a TBC-IV for real-time video capture…