Forensic Animations
30 messages in this thread
I am interested in talking with others involved in creating Forensic
aniamtions.
I recently attended the Autodesk University in Atlanta, GA and found that most
material was aimed at Architecture which left me out. If others are interested
in some sort of compuserve SIG let me know.
Rick Loften 74131,1266
Did you get see __any__ material that was aimed at forensic animations
during the Autodesk University? Forensics is certainly not the
biggest segment for 3DS, but one that I certainly enjoy working in.
When you say "CompuServe SIG" what did you have in mind, a new section in this
forum or a completely separate one? Sounds very interesting to me, lets talk!
How long have you been working in the area of forensics and where are you
located? I'm in Oklahoma City area and have been doing this kind of work for 3
years now.
Regards…………….Rick – Technical Animations
The only Forensic info at Autodesk U was a class taught by the
president of eyewitness animations. The class was somewhat
interesting and there were alot of people there but it was only one
class.
There was not enough time or resources to answer all the questions.
As far as a compuserve SIG, what I had in mind was just some sort of
way for people interested in Forensic animation to network, since
there is no real geographical area where there are a lot of people
doing forensic animation.
As far as my own experience, I am in Atlanta GA and work for an accident
reconstruction firm here. I have been doing autocad work involving accident
scenes and 3d models, placing them on the survey dwg in several positions
showing
the positions at different points in time, and now am learning 3d studio to try
and put these things in motion.
My other area of interest w/3D Studio is in the photogrammetry capabilities.
Have you tried this at all and if so I would like to talk about procedures.
Rick 74131,1266
Rick,
>>As far as a compuserve SIG, what I had in mind was just some sort of way for
people interested in Forensic animation to network, since there is no real
geographical area where there are a lot of people doing forensic animation.<<
Just an idea, but maybe a list of people in forensic animations could be left
in the library. Then when a problem arises, all one would have to do is email
with copies to several people or call someone.
>>My other area of interest w/3D Studio is in the photogrammetry capabilities.
Have you tried this at all and if so I would like to talk about procedures.<<
I could swear that someone described a procedure for using 3DS to do
photogrammetry work. That was some 6-9 months ago and I can't find that thread.
Maybe one could use the image as a background then using a grid, match it to
the image, perspective wise. If it will match the image, then using the tape
measure get your dimensions from the image. Thats probably over simplified, but
a start.
Regards………….Rick – Technical Animations
Hi Rick,
<< Just an idea, but maybe a list of people in forensic animations could be
left in the library. Then when a problem arises, all one would have to do is
email with copies to several people or call someone. >>
If you wish..feel free to upload a file to the libs. We'll help you administer
replacements over time.
jonas[adesk]
Jonas,
>>If you wish..feel free to upload a file to the libs. We'll help you
administer replacements over time.<<
I just knew that if mentioned that idea, I would get to…..<BG>. Well
ok, I will take care of the list for ___forensic animators___. First
lets make sure that I have a format for the info on everyone. Here is
the first pass, send your suggestions now or forever hold your…..
Name:
Company Name:
Address:
Phone #:
Fax #:
CompuServe #:
Areas Worked In: Ex. Cars, Trucks, Planes….
Any deletions, additions or changes to the format anyone?
Jonas, I didn't get your message as a "waiting message". I did get others
though in the same pass thru the forum. I'm glad I downloaded the new messages,
thats when I saw your reply. Got any ideas how that would happen?
Regards………..Rick – Technical Animations
Hi Rick, Well since I kind of started this I guess I will help you get the
ball rolling.
Name: Rick Loften
Company Name: Kent, Vadnais and Wood
Address: 1215 Hightower Trail B250
Atlanta, Ga 30350
Phone #: 404-642-7418
Fax #: 404-642-8428
Email: 74131,1266
Areas of work/interest: Mostly automotive accident reconstruction involving
photogrammetry and vehicle dynamics,evoling toward
animations.
Rick,
You're in.
I've added two more fields, "Internet #" and "Business Opened" if you care to
add them.
BTW, I have started a new thread so it will be more noticeable, its called
"Forensic Animator List". Just thought I should let you know.
Regards…………Rick – Technical Animations
I'll thorw my hat in the ring also.
Name: Tom Crage Company Name : Digital Witness Address: 432 Highland Ave.
Orlando, FL 32801 Phone: (407) 426-9229 CIS: 72202,255
Let me know what else you need.
Tom Crage
Great to have you on our list. I have added some fields to the
original set. Please format your answer just like it is below in a
vertical format, it will make it more consistant and easier on me,
thanks!
Name:
Company Name:
Address:
Phone #:
Fax #:
CompuServe #:
Internet:
Areas Worked In:
Additional Qual.:
Business opened:
Regards………….Rick – Technical Animations
Hi Rick, I am located in the Lake Tahoe area and am in the process of getting
my company (Sierra Analysis Group) off the ground in the forensic engineering /
animation business. I am a registered PE in Nevada and California. I would be
very interested in such a forum. What is your background?
-TC
pmji – I too am a pe (civil) in arizona and have been trying to make some
inroads into forensics – strictly animation based on others work though, i
don't care to take the witness stand.
Actually, i've found a lot of resistance to animations and graphics. mostly
because the judges feel it prejudices the jury. As a result, I've found it very
tough to break in to this field. Let me know what your experience has been.
Hi Tyler
I am located in Atlanta, GA. The very reason why I posted the
original was because it seems as though people like ourselves are
very spread out.
My background is not so impressive, I work for an accident
reconstruction firm doing mostly autocad dwg's with 3d cars on the
drawings showing trajectory and final rest positions, using smac runs
and police report data.
I am just now entering the animation process and would like to build a
network of people that can help one another.
Another particular area of interest w/ 3D studio for me is the
photogrammetry capability.
Do you have any experience with this? and let me know how you are
using 3D studio.
Forensic animation is still a relativly small segment of work being
done. That is bound to change and you should stick around and start
some threads youself. Did you see Jack Suchocki's presentation at
AU? It was very good. Good luck.
As a matter of fact I did go to Jack's class and thought it was very
good except that there was to little Q and A time. I attended a few
of your classes and enjoyed them as well.
I was just disappointed that most everything was geared toward
architecture. It would have been nice had they taught how to use 3D
studio for things people don't normally think about. I (long red
hair baseball cap) spoke with you and others about using 3D Studio
for photogrammetry but this seemed to be a not so well known area.
Anyway thanks for listening,
Rick 74131,1266
Rick
You really should get a haircut!<G> Thanks for attending my sessions and
especially for the feedback.
I would expect to see a better variety of MM sessions next year at AU. What
could happen if a session was presented on a subject people don't normally
think about, is that people would complain that it was something they never
thought about and a waste of their time<g>.
If you have some experience in photogrammetry maybe you could do a session
next year? I heard a lot of talk about forensics this year, so there is
certainly a demand for the subject.
Hope to see you again next year.
TedB
!^NavFont01F0007MGHHHEBC82D
Rick, I think you'll find a lot of forensic animators on line. I have
been trying to get into that market for about 2 years now. I finally
landed a great case and am about finished. Trial in 1995 sometime. I
am anxious to see it go to court (hope it does). I too have met with
a lot of resistance from lawyers who are sceptical. The best advice I
ever received on this forum is that this type of demonstration should
not be used any differently than any other artistic medium already in
use in the courtroom. I simply draw the pictures detailing what I
have been told by "experts". The lawyer for the case I am currently
working on knows this and it has worked great. I am interested in
talking more about this subject. I think we can all benefit from one
anothers experiences. Paul Kakert (Oh yeah . . . I am located in
Davenport, IA. About 2 hours from Chicago on the Mississippi (IA/IL)
border. Ever heard of us . . . maybe for Riverboat Gambling)
Paul,
Your right in that most computer animations are just another way for the expert
to explain his/her opinion of what happened. There is other types though, a
Thomas Bohan wrote a SAE paper breaking up the diferent types of animation into
categories and discusses their admissibility as evidence and its use as
demonstrative evidence.
Its great when one goes to court, I've only had 2 in 3 years. Just remember
that an animation is a great tool for the attorney to settle before going to
court, saving considerable costs. They make themselves and their clients more
money that way, I suspect. Plus, they can work more cases in a year if they
don't go to court. I've had two settle in mediation, both for an undisclosed
amount. Maybe we should work for commission<BG>.
I found that the best way to get into see the attorneys is by talking with the
experts. They already have an established relationship with ___many___
attorneys. If they like what they see, they can get you in to see several
attorneys.
Tell us about your case that you are working on.
BTW, I'm in Oklahoma
Regards……………..Rick – Technical Animations
Rick, Hi again…I am on a committee in SAE dealing with the issues
of using computer animations in court, at least for accident
reconstruction work. Tom Bohan is on the committee with me. There
have been papers presented at the SAE world congress for the past 4
years on computer animation in reconstruction/analysis. Wes Grimes
Visitor-
Any way to get the papers on line.
Rick Lapidus
Video Production Marketing Inc.
I do not think so…the SAE has a copyright.
Wes Grimes
Maybe they have a bbs. Will let you know.
Hi Paul,
I may have heard of Davenport before. The responses have been
intersesting because I don't believe I have heard from any two people
that have been within 500 miles from one another. I live in Atlanta,
GA.
I work for an accident reconstruction and am just now getting into 3D
Studio and is several uses in this field. The reason for starting
this discussion was somewhat selfish since I am a new user but
hopefully we can all help one another.
Have you used 3D Studio for photogrammetry? This is a big area of interest for
me?
Rick 74131,1266
Photgrammetry in 3D Studio? How would that work? I am not a photogrammetrist
(whew!), but we do it a lot here in the office with airiel (sp?) photos, and I
have observed the process.
I have done photogrammetry w/3D Studio twice using a scanned in photo
as a background and laying a 3D dataset of an undamaged car over it.
It took me a very long time to get things lined up because I have no
information about the photo in use. If you use the proxy background
in release 3 to line things up it helps some, but there are
differences when you render. So it takes alot of trial and even more
error to get it correctly posotioned. I have not got R4 yet but it
has a command called match perspective and I imagine that will help.
I have done photogrammetry w/3D Studio twice using a scanned in photo
as a background and laying a 3D dataset of an undamaged car over it.
It took me a very long time to get things lined up because I have no
information about the photo in use. If you use the proxy background
in release 3 to line things up it helps some, but there are
differences when you render. So it takes alot of trial and even more
error to get it correctly posotioned.
Rick,
>>I have not got R4 yet but it has a command called match perspective and I
imagine that will help.<<
I sure hope you are right about that helping! Do you know if "match
perspective" will set the length of the camera lens or does it just give the
camera a location.
I've done several using moving video for this one attorney, he sure seems to
like the looks of having the real scene in the final product. The last one I
did for him had a computer train passing behind several trees(trees in the
video) and impacting with a video truck that went to computer truck at impact.
Regards……….Rick – Technical Animations
>>I have done photogrammetry w/3D Studio twice using a scanned in photo as a
background and laying a 3D dataset of an
undamaged car over it. It took me a very long time to get things lined up
because I have no information about the photo in use.
If you use the proxy background in release 3 to line things up it helps some,
but there are differences when you render.
So it takes alot of trial and even more error to get it correctly posotioned.
<<
That kinda sounds like the hard way. I have some software that I can load a
georeferenced image (scanned photo, sattelite image, whatever) and digitize on
top of it. If I need to place somthing in 3ds, I create a 3d box where I want
it to go and import it as a DXF into 3ds and replace the box with whatever it
is needs to go in that spot. Dosen't work for background images, but most of
the stuff I used it for was satellite imagery on top of a topo mesh and things
like this.
Tim,
Thats very interesting, what is the software and what is the cost for it? Are
you using a tablet to do your digitizing, I would guess that a mouse would not
work for this purpose?
How do you know what length of camera lens to use in 3DS, such that it will
match the image correctly?
Regards………….Rick – Technical Animations
The software I use to do that is called "The Map and Image Processing System"
or "TNT-MIPS" for short. As the name says, it is mainly image processing for
geographic related stuff, mainly GIS.
The software starts at around 6k, I think. Probably overkill for you, but there
are programs that can allow you to load images and do a similar function in
Acad, as well. We were going to purchase one, but have not, yet. If you like, I
can probably dig up the name. The software was about 1.5k, as I recall.
Tim,
Thanks for getting back to me about your software. Your right, it is over kill
for me. If I needed to do something along those lines would you be able to
provide the service? I'm asking because I have a need to setup a camera and
objects in 3DS to match video shot at the accident site sometimes. Usually I
can get this done myself, but there may come a situation where I can't. It
would be better to know now where to go, then start looking after I have the
need arise.
Thanks for the offer to look up the name, but it will not be necessary now.
Regards……….Rick – Technical Animations