#PAR
23 messages in this thread
To whom it may concern,
I'm trying to get enough info together to make an informed decision re:
Personal Animation Recorders. I know that DPS is the standard right now, but I
also know that there are alternatives now appearing. My questions are: does
anybody have any information about these other brandsm or recommendations for
the DPS PAR? I would prefer not having to have a dedicated hard disk for my
animation, but if that's what it takes…
Also, Anyone have recommendations re: Syndesis Interchange, or any of the other
conversion utilities as they relate to Playmation? I would be trying to
convert Imagine, DXF/3ds formats.
Any info appreciated, thanks in advance, AD
I have no personal experience with the PAR board, but I know about it a little
from
monthly Animation SIG meetings held here near Detroit.
I've been told that there is some loss due to the compression techniques
involved.
If you're only doing about 6 minutes of animation with very little compression
(I
don't know which ratio), the loss is minimal. If you try to take advantage of
the 12
minute length, you will notice the loss, however. For the board and the
hard-drive
required, you're talking about a close to $3000 investment.
Dale Myers, a local computer animator and whiz in general saves his files to
Exabyte tape and then takes the tape to a local production house (Grace & Wild)
where they convert it to digital then to 1 inch video tape (I think it's a $350
job).
An Exabyte drive capable of holding the targa files you'd create for a decent
short
animation costs around $3000, too. But there is no loss.
If you want basic conversion of your FLI & FLC files to VHS tape, and you can
live
with some color bleeding and loss of resolution, but absolutely no flicker and
a
generally acceptable video picture, check out the MultiPro CTV PC-to-video
converter box from AITech. It does a pretty good job and runs for about $244
mail order. BTW, it helps if you have your screen refresh rate at 60hz for no
flicker
at all and if you use Super-VHS.
Kevin
Kevin,
I live near Detroit, how can I find out more on the Animation SIG group?
Thanks,
Jim Jonah
Hi, Jim–
The Animation SIG is held at 7PM every third Thursday of the month at Slipped
Disk in Madison Heights, in a shopping strip around the corner from K-Mart, at
12 Mile and John R. Mostly Amiga guys attend, but there's more interest in PC
programs, etc. since the problems with Commodore happened.
You can bring a VHS tape with your animations to play for everyone…generally
about 20-30 people show up. Dale Myers usually runs the meetings. He won 3
local TV Emmys for Robo Jr. that ran on Channel 4 Christmas Eve last year.
Lotsa heavy Lightwave users attend, but there are things in common and Dale is
hooked in to the new technology coming out…he gets to try out new things on
demo because of his notoriety.
A wide ranging crowd usually of college kids, people working on industrials and
older pros and hobbyists.
The next meeting is this Thursday, October 20. They're just east of I-75.
See ya there!
Kevin
Kevin,
One comment on the PAR board. The loss depends on particular settings and does
not depend on how long the animation is. You message sounded like a 12 minute
animation would be more lossy than a 6 minute animation. This is not true. The
loss is a per-frame loss. We use a PAR every day for some projects and where
slight lossy animation is acceptable, it is great! For really high-end stuff,
we record directly to laser disc or Beta SP.
Doug Wolfgram – GRAFX
– Doug Wolfgram/GRAFX, Written 18-Oct-1994 @ 07:54:01
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
Thanks, Doug, for the update.
I was just relaying what I had been told..that longer times required more
compression and thus more loss. The guy telling me uses it a lot and is picky
about his pictures, so that could explain the disparaging comments from him.
He set the 6 minute limit for good quality. I'm glad to hear from you that it's
not that bad.
Kevin
Kevin,
I had posted a question earlier regarding the DPS PAR, and other PARs out
there. Do you know where I can get more info (from users) about what is
available to me product-wise? I'll try Graphdev, but hey, you're here, now.
<g> Thanks, AD
The PAR retails for about $1895 I think. I can't remember how much I paid for
mine. It is a wonderful tool for lo-end video production. The drivers are
updated regularly and supported here on CIS. As a side note, we have an
unwritten policy at GRAFX NOT to use any product that isn't supported here on
CIS! The compression is frame dependent, not time dependent, as my earlier
message stated. We are currently using it for production work on the Saturday
morning cartoon show, Where in the World is Carmen San Diego, produced by DIC
Entertainment. Greg Pyros at Pyros Pictures uses one for testing video clips he
is producing for the new cable sci-fi show, Lightspeed. So it is good enough
for some professional applications.
– Doug Wolfgram/GRAFX, Written 19-Oct-1994 @ 08:29:46
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
Doug,
If you don't mind, may I ask what are the tools you are using for the cartoon
productions and why did you choose them?
Thanks,
Jin Jonah
No problem! We use a combination of Autodesk Animator (for 8-bit stuff), 3D
Studio and on the MAC side, Direstor and Linker's Animation Stand. If you know
of a good, object oriented, 24-bit 2D animation system for the PC, please let
me know!!
– Doug Wolfgram/GRAFX, Written 20-Oct-1994 @ 07:20:28
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
No problem! We use a combination of Autodesk Animator (for 8-bit stuff), 3D
Studio and on the MAC side, Direstor and Linker's Animation Stand. If you know
of a good, object oriented, 24-bit 2D animation system for the PC, please let
me know!!
– Doug Wolfgram/GRAFX, Written 20-Oct-1994 @ 07:20:28
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
Doug,
Thank you for your reply, The fact that you guys are using it for
pre-production tells me that it's probably just fine for my purposes (and
budget <g>. From other messages I've read, I guess I'm not as worried about
lossy compression as some, but I need more experience with it to know for
sure… Thanks, AD
The real problem we have with it is the the edge artifacts with cartoons. But
it usually isn't a problem. I think that the entire industry will change their
attitudes soon. I just installed my Direct TV and the edge artifacts there are
noticable sometimes, but it doesn't spoil the entertainment experience…
– Doug Wolfgram/GRAFX, Written 23-Oct-1994 @ 07:54:52
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
Doug,
Do you ever use the Direct TV for anything that goes outside your studio? I
apologize if I missed this earlier, but I thought you said you just used it
internally… AD
Direct TV is for my house. It is the new 18" TV satellite dish. But it uses a
high-quality depression.
– Doug Wolfgram/GRAFX, Written 24-Oct-1994 @ 12:44:20
Using: Windows NavCIS PRO 1.25
Doug,
What kind of area do you live in (I'm pretty rural = lots 'o trees)? My
understanding was the inclination of the smaller dishes was only about 20-25
deg. is that true? AD
Graphdev is probably your best bet. I do know the guys at Hash use the PAR
board. I'm happy right now loading what little I've done to video tape using AI
Tech's MultiPro CTV. It does a very decent job for the price. I was pleasantly
surprised by it.
Kevin
Kevin,
Could you refresh my memory, which device was the CTV? Was that the VGA to
NTSC converter, or was it a more comprehensive solution like the DPS board? I
guess what I really want is a PAR that doesn't restrict my hard drive purchase,
since they're so cheap now. (Western Digital 1 gig = $500.00)
Thanks, AD
Adam,
The MultiPro CTV is a VGA to NTSC or PAL converter. It does a pretty good job
for the price. Be forewarned that there is color bleeding with intense colors,
especially reds and greens (blue doesn't seem to cause problems for me yet) and
larger fonts are a must..like the ones you see in WinCIM. But color bleeding
and
font size is less of a problem if you use the S-connector and a good S-VHS
deck.
And to my eyes, which love laserdisc quality, the FLIs and FLCs look pretty
darn
good. You should experience no flicker if your screen refresh is 60 hz. It will
work
with 16.7Million colors but they advise 640×480 resolution. There are overscan
and underscan controls and a screen adjust control. It's completely outboard
and
doesn't require software but they do provide a floppy with a software program
for
those who don't have VGA boards. They include all the connectors you need,
even an RF choke. I only connect mine when I'm videotaping..the connectors very
easily slide on and off, but you don't want your monitor continually connected
all the time because of color bleeding and blurriness, an artifact of the
conversion
process. Your video signal will be quite clear compared to what you see on your
computer monitor screen while you are converting VGA to NTSC. I got mine for
$244.95 from MicroWarehouse and was quite surprised that it works so well for
the
price. I thought I'd have to spend $700 at least to get the quality I was
looking
for (just for basic VHS recording..nothing fancy) from the impression some
magazine articles had left me.
I asked about the PAR board from users of it at tonight's Animation SIG and was
told once again that it is fine for limited use. But I was told by a couple of
people
not to expect great video for more than one minute's worth of material. Also,
some
hard-drives cause drop outs and other problems as they recalibrate and even the
newer drives can't be loaded to capacity. One guy uses a Micropolis 2017 and
can't get more than 1 gig of storage with it before running into glitches.
Theoretic-
ally, he should be able to use 1.5 gig of the @1.7 gig hard-drive. And also,
certain
animations cause it to drop the "Q" factor dramatically. lowering resolution. I
think
I got that right. The "6 minutes" figure I quoted before was inaccurate. Jon
Tyndal
was there tonight and said he's hasn't been able to do more than 5 minutes and
only gets great video quality up to 60 seconds. (He's the developer of
"Sparks")
He qualified his comments by saying he had an older, smaller hard-drive. About
540 meg, I think.
Dale Myers has only seen them used, he stores his animations to exabyte using
Abacus and takes the tapes to a local production house to convert to 1 inch.
These are folks who do this stuff for a living and are heavy into Lightwave and
Amiga programs.
Hope that helps a bit in your decision process.
Kevin
Kevin,
I very much appreciate your detailed response. I haven't decided what to do
yet, but thanks for the info. I have ruled out a production house (don't need
1 inch) and I need to see a straight converter before I go in that direction.
I guess I'll have to get comfortable on this fencepost for a little bit longer.
<g> Thanks again, AD
Adam–
No problem, sit as long as you want. I've found that the more information you
can get, the better off you are with this stuff. If I had gone with early
advice I
would've blown $200-$300 on a new video card that I don't really need at this
point and probably wouldn't have worked as well because of my computer's ISA
bus slots. My current card is local-bus and works great with its new drivers
and
bios. A simple fli player off the Playmation BBS took care of my animation
display
problems because it utilizes my ram instead of playing directly from the
hard-drive.
I'm waiting on purchasing the proprietary cache kit for my NEC PC so I can find
the best cash deal.
Good things sometimes come to those who wait!<g>
Kevin
Kevin,
Yeah, the main problem is the usual computer thing: Something better and
cheaper is coming along real soon now. i know there are several PARs in the
works, since this is a growing area, but you gotta get something done sometime.
<g>
Basically a friend and I are looking into it all right now. He's got Imagine
and I've got Playmation. We can afford a PAR with a little planning, but it's
not a trivial expense because we don't have any money-making ideas yet, we are
really just playing with this stuff. I guess it wouldn't be a true hobby if
you couldn't spend as much money as you want on it!
AD