#Open Letter to CEI
19 messages in this thread
I'm sure everyone will agree on the portable Amiga.
PCI may be a step above ZorroIII, but it's still what I consider in 'beta'.
Some of the PCI cards on the market today do not work well together (ie
conflicts between 2 or more PCI cards). It's still in it's infancy, and I'm
sure that something better will come out of it when it's finished.
I wouldn't own a Packard Bell and I would never recommend it to anyone I liked.
Compaq, on the other hand, makes a good machine. If only the marketing side
knew how to keep up with the demand (They're almost as bad as IBM was with the
Thinkpads 🙂 And Compaq has horendous tech support to it's dealers (*average*
time on hold is now up to 50 minutes, *everytime*). But I would recommend a
Compaq over most other PC's any day (As far as PC's go, of course. They can't
touch Amiga's :^)
I guess I wouldn't classify my response in regard to 'low end' as much as
'middle end'. Low end is more like the A500,600,1200(stock). I'm talking more
like the A3000 type's (updated in a new model, of course). Something that the
rest of us can afford and build on. Like me; I don't make a lot of money, so I
have to peice my system together with little scraps of leftover money. It
would take years for me to save enough for an A4000, while I could have my
A1200 and spend time upgrading it. I would at least be USING it, and not
wishing for it. I'm sure there are more people out there like me that want the
same thing, and it should be enough to generate good business. I'm sure that
concentration on higher end stuff will generate a lot of new business, and I
think it is a good decision to go that way. But, lets not forget about us
little people.
Rick Green Via AutoPilot
>> I wouldn't own a Packard Bell and I would never recommend it to anyone
>> I liked.
I do (well, my brother does) own a Packard Bell…and neither my brother
nor I would recommend it to anyone, even folks we don't like — that'd be
cruel and unusual punishment. <g>
– Jim, on AutoPilot!
Rick,
Hey, a PCI bus with some help from Amiga "AutoConfigure" technology will go a
long way. Frankly, that's what Intel needs. The Commodore PCs had the
AutoConfigure feature and for the most part, it worked.
Yeah, the Packard Bell machines are of poor quality and reliability, however,
it is an excellent example of how Plug n Go packaging is a real success in the
overcrowded market. Their distribution network is incredible.
IMHO, the A1200 should be scrapped and go for the A1000 Plus design Commodore
was working on. It was suppose to be the A4000 in a "pizza box" design.
Believe me, I saw the prototype (casework only) when I was down at CEI and it
looked really good! Add a CD-ROM, 6MB of RAM, 500 MB Hard Drive, 40 MHz
68EC030 and its done! Cost maybe just a little more than a standard A1200.
Easier to build too. Probably start by modifying the CD32 motherboard. I
think that's a good start for the "little" people.
It might not be a bad idea to incorporate PCI with Amiga AutoConfig, but how
long would it take to implement? Frankly, I think Intel needs to stop limiting
their chips with 8088 technology (although, they are remarkably clever with
implementing it). By the way, have you heard about the bug in the Pentium
chip? It's all over the news here. That's gonna hurt.
I think by the time PCI could be incorporated, there would be something better
available. But, then again, by then PCI could be somewhat mainstream and a lot
of cards would be available for it. But then again, we would throw backward
compatability through the door. How about having both PCI and Zorro III (IV?)
on the same board? That should suffice for compatability and future
enhancement :^) That's my decision process ticking, ignore it.
Does that A1000 plus design have anything to do with the acclaimed A2200 ad we
all saw in AmigaWorld? It sounds very familiar.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
I'm not a hardware guy, but…
I thought PCI already did most of what AutoConfig does, just differently. I
don't think you could do anything different without becoming non-compatible,
and that AutoConfig is very dependent on Zorro — you couldn't just slap it on
to another bus standard.
I don't know much about PCI, myself. Someone just suggested it.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
Rick:
The idea of having both Zorro and another (PCI?) bus is part of the AAA
Philosophy (see DevCon Notes 1993). And to everyone else: AAA is a philosphy,
not just a chipset. The AAA philosophy should be pursued for future advanced
Amigas. With a proper AAA motherboard, one could build a machine that could be
68060 (CISC) now and RISC later.
.Andy
John
re: your conversation about PackardBell PC's, our company is contracted to
do warranty work on several thousands of them and to tell you the truth
the reliability is not so bad, except that there are certain components
(dual floppys) that seem to be achille's heels. Even Amigas had such weak
links and we all can recite the litany of them.
The trend that disturbs me more is the move by Klones like PB to the "all
in one" surface mounted motherboard.Even the battery is soldered and now
the ethernet card is integrated too. Only the floppy, harddrive, and
powersupply are not part of the mainboard. Some have one Vesa slot.
We have seen the 4000 follow the trend and know the problem when
motherboards are not available as now. Even if the MTBF is much better
than the card-in-a-slot AT, PCI, or Amiga2000 type architecture (and it is
supposed to be much better) that matters little to the individual owner
facing the expense of a new or refurbished motherboard worth as much as he
paid for the whole machine because the mouse port or the serial port died.
If it continues to take over, the new "mainboard" concept will also make
the precieved advantage of a new Amiga 5000 with a PCI buss obsolete
before it can be built because there won't be any new PCI boards.
alternate: jonest@hfsi.com
I never met a man I didn't like…Will Rogers
G'day,
>> Probably start by modifying the CD32 motherboard. I think that's a
>> good start for the "little" people.
Personally, I think there should only be one Amiga motherboard. The "low end"
and the "high end" machines should have the same motherboard, and come in the
same case. They can have different CPU's on CPU cards. The AAA (or whatever)
chipset can also be on a seperate card. This way third party developers only
have to make one version of their hardware (as opposed to the 53 different
versions they have to make at the moment), whoever makes the Amiga only has to
design one motherboard to fit into one case, and the end user is not penalised
with regard to expansion potential because they can't afford the $68,000 high
end machine.
This would also make production cheaper as they only have to have one
motherboard production line (they can plug the appropriate CPU card as per
demand), one case (ease and standardisation of assembly), and no "we're not
producing high end machines becuse we need full motherboard production
capacity for the low end demand" problems.
The "low end" machine could have a PowerPC 601 (or 603) CPU card, whilst the
"high end" machine could have a PowerPC 620 (or 2 or 3 etc. 🙂 ). I
understand that the PowerPC 601 chips are cheaper than the viable 680×0
alternative (ie. 68040, lets face it, with Pentium systems rapidly dropping to
tupence for two dozen a lowly 68030 just doesn't cut it anymore in the value
stakes.)
The "Chipset" board could also have the chipram mounted on it, instead of the
motherboard, just in case AAAA is 64, 128, 256 bit etc. All RAM should, of
course, be socketed. Preferbly 72pin Simms, perhaps EDRAM?
There should be lots of expansion slots on the motherboard. The cost of
designing a new motherbord with "one or two" slots for the "low end" machine
would more than outweigh the $10.00 it costs to put a full compliment of slots
on one standard motherboard. That cost can be burdened by the consumer, I'd
certainly pay $10 more to get proper expansion capabilities.
The 500/600/1200 mentality should be eradicated. Designing systems like that
is just an added drain on resources. The only Amiga sans-"lots of slots in a
desktop/mini tower/full tower case" should be a portable. Given the choice,
I'd say the vast majority of 500/600/1200 owners would prefer lots of expansion
slots, but couldn't afford them in the Commodore scheme of things (about $400
per slot I think the going rate was, not bad for a $1.00 connecter)
That was one of the problems for hardware developers (and Commodore) …. Far
too many identical but incompatible hardware variations (slot wise).
All IMHO.
Sam Yates Montrose, Victoria, Australia.
samyates@werple.apana.org.au
samyates@ozemail.com.au
How about a separate card for slots? Doesn't the A4000 have this? Have one
slot that you plug a card of slots into. That would make it easier to offer
different models of Amigas while having the same main system board. All that
would be needed is a number of cards with a different amount of slots for
upgradability (maybe diffent types of slots as well? ie PCI, etc. Could be
used for upgrading in the future). The only thing to get around is the case
and power supply. There needs to be some new innovation in this area to
provide this kind of expandability.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
Rick,
unless I'm completely misunderstanding the way current logic circuits
work, having two, three, or five bus slots costs you exactly the same in
terms of bus driver chips. True, there is a difference in providing the
bus connectors, but the actual chip count remains the same. All you are
out is connectors and the traces to connect them, not a heck of a lot of
money.
Now, when it comes to five and ten bus connectors, that is a whole
'nother kettle of fish. Then you might be talking the kind of money in
your example.
It'd be nice if one machine gave us the choice of five slots and the
next gave us ten, and perhaps a power-stroking machine gave us fifteen.
That's too rational, so I don't expect to see it soon.
Of course, this with CPU's on a card, interface logic on a card, etc.
Again, too rational. Gee, whatever happened to S-100 or Multi-Bus?
Mostly what I was talking about was different types and configurations of
slots, not just the number of slots. Ie, have 3 Zorro, 3 PCI, 2 VIDEO, 2 ISA,
etc.., or more/less of each, and leave room for different types of slots to be
developed later. That way, all that is needed is a new card with slots, and
possibly circuitry to make it all work (The $$$ in the project). Just a
thought 🙂
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
G'day,
>> How about a separate card for slots? Doesn't the A4000 have this?
>> Have one slot that you plug a card of slots into.
Yes, the A4000 does do it this way, however, stacking the slots vertically is
not very efficient space wise. (You can get 8 slots on a PC normally, but
you'd only get 4 if you went vertical (unless you had two banks of four, one
at each side of the machine)). It's also more fidgety manufacture wise.
>> That would make it easier to offer different models of Amigas while
>> having the same main system board. All that would be needed is a number
>> of cards with a different amount of slots for upgradability
I don't see why there needs to be a difference in the number of slots on low
end and high end machines. That is a very "Commodore" mentality. (No offence
intended 🙂 ) (ie. put the A500 in a bigger box and add some slots then add
$1000 to the price. Or the 1200/4000 thing. "If you want expansion you'll have
enough money for a 68040" plus Commodores strategy of "Double the price per
slot" )
You don't get penalised in the PC world for buying a 486SX against a DX/4 100
so why should Amiga buyers?
>> The only thing to get around is the case and power supply.
If they have a standard number of slots they will only need one style of case.
Just IMHO of course.
Sam Yates Montrose, Victoria, Australia.
samyates@werple.apana.org.au
samyates@ozemail.com.au
Read my reply to Brian Bartlett.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
Couldn't have said it better myself 🙂
Rick,
>> I'm talking more like the A3000 type's (updated in a new model, of course).
Something that the rest of us can afford and build on. Like me; I don't make a
lot of money, so I have to peice my system together with little scraps of
leftover money. It would take years for me to save enough for an A4000, while
I could have my A1200 and spend time upgrading it. I would at least be USING
it, and not wishing for it. <<
I fully agree. There should still be the opportunity to purchase a _modest_
machine at a reasonable price und upgrade it with needs arising. For me, it was
one of the charming aspects with Amiga when I bought my first one. I could tell
a whole story how my Amiga gradually (including the step from A500 to A2000, it
would have been A4000 now if only available) enhanced – just, or at least
almost just on the pace my purse allowed.
I know that doesn't apply to the pro user. So there ought to be new high end
Amigas, too. But don't forget all those pupils and students that don't own
ample money – but will earn it as years go farther.
Joachim Sondermann
on Amiga AutoPilot from Cologne, Germany
Right on, another supporter 🙂 As I was telling Mr. Chang a couple months
ago, I sold a lot of Amigas during my tour of duty in Germany (and I didn't
even work at the store). When I showed my friends what it could do, they were
astonished. When I showed them what it cost, they bought it. This is so
simple; I'm surprised it didn't catch on and make a lot of people very rich. I
sold an average of 2 machines every weekend for almost 2 years this way (It
would have been more, but I spent a lot of my weekends in the field 🙂 I am,
of course, talking about the A500.
Rick Green
Via AutoPilot
Rick,
> the rest of us can afford and build on.
I second that emotion (he typed on his 512K/2MB 68000 A500 wishing he
didn't have to buy a PC he can't afford)!
Malcolm