#Accelerators for 500?
25 messages in this thread
Scott,
Before you spend a lot of $$ to expand your A500, I'd suggest that you
seriously consider upgrading to an A2x00 or A3000. It's risky business to
do serious expansions to the A500. Many of the peripherals do not work
well with each other – often there's no way to predict this before
purchase. (ask the man who owns one. 8| )
David
Speak for yourself, David. The A500-compatible accelerators cause far less
havoc with other expansions than similar A2000 models.
Chris,
I always speak for myself – never claimed anything else. 8)
The A500 accelerators and other internal expansion hardware are very clever
and some are quite well designed. The problem is that the A500 was not
intended to be expanded to a large extent. Care to estimate the internal
temperature of an A500 running a 50MHz '030 mod with 8 megs of extra ram
installed? (No, I don't know of a 50MHz expansion – I'm just trying to
make a point.) Heating/cooling cycles are a major cause of problems in
electronic equipment. I have heavily expanded my A500. With the extra
electrical load for the internal expansion, I'm now taking a 0.1v drop
across the EMI filter. It may not sound like much, but when you include
the voltage drop in the power supply cable, it starts to add up.
Internally, my electronics are seeing about 4.86v. Yes, I do have an excess
capacity power supply.
That brings up another point. It's a never ending cycle. Start to add up
the price of the extra capacity power supply, the accelerator board, the
ram board, the ram chips, the external HD unit (which has its own power
supply), … and it adds up fast. After all that, you still have an A500
that's sprawling out all over your desk.
The A500 is a great unit for what it was intended. IMHO, one should
seriously consider changing platforms before starting on the A500 expansion
bandwagon. If after evaluating all the alternatives, the decision is to
stick with the A500 and expand, so be it. At least it should be an
informed decision, though. If I had it to do over again, I'd have switched
platforms before major expansion efforts. I do think that it's worth it to
add an external HD/memory unit to an A500. Going beyond should be
carefully considered, though.
David
Well, David, I keep an eye open for what works and what doesn't. It's
disillusioning to see A2000 users abandon their concerns with their
machine's problems to condescend a warning about expanding an A500. Indeed,
the 2000 is alot more similar to the 500 than many would like to think. I
don't like to think about it and I own a 500.
As for the CSA MMR, it is available at 50MHz and still recommended for the
A500. No, I do not think that temperature would be much worse (if any) a
problem with it in a 500 rather than a 2000; It has already been made
apparent here on CI$ that the 2000 has termperature-regulating problems of
it's own with accelerators (A2000-specific ones), yet I know more than one
Amiga Sysop that leaves his A500 with '030 and HD running 24hrs/day nonstop
without any apparent problems. Indeed, I do the same, although I don't have
an accelerator.
Tell me there aren't power-distribution problems in the A2000. Or
overheating problems. Tell me system-failures related to these occur
less-frequently with the A2000 than the A500. Can you hear me roll my eyes?
=^]
"… an A500 that's sprawling out all over your desk."
Let's assume we add a popular SCSI interface to our A500, with an external
HD; We have just used up an overhead of desk-space; If we shopped smartly
and went with a top brand name, we got an all-in-one unit that's perhaps 4
inches wide and holds everything including the HD itself. Now, let's add
RAM.. Gee, no more space was used up… and where did that '030 board for
the 500 go? I don't see it anywhere on the desk.
This is about the extent of system-level expansion that most users will go
with over the life of their machine. Where is the "never-ending" cycle?
Adding the cost of two power supplies (maybe one, depending on the SCSI
brand) and a case to the system price isn't going to bring it in the
neighborhood of a similarly-equipped A2000.
[CONTINUED..]
[CONTINUED..]
The A500 configuration is somewhat less convenient in that the keyboard
isn't detachable and an external SCSI unit makes it less portable (of
course, an internal IDE interface/HD like ICD's would make it more
portable). An A2000 is better for loading up with more esoteric devices
such as certain video, network and aquisition boards; But this is still a
matter of convenience, only to a larger degree. The 500 is certainly more
reliable to expand than the A1000 was, and the 500 has also proven it can
hold it's own relative to the A2000 to many of us on a budget.
What makes you think that I own an A2000? I run a 9 meg A500 setup with a
68010 and an 80 meg HD. I'm not "condescending" to give people a warning,
I'm relating the fact that I've been the expanded A500 route and would
recommend that before people embark on the same journey that I've been on,
that they seriously evaluate their plans first. You're right when you say
that the A500 is more reliable to expand than the A1000, but, you are
ignoring the many pitfalls and incompatibilities that still exist.
How many of the "just remove the 68000 chip and plug in this board" mods
will fit inside an A500? How would you use an ATonce _and_ a processor
accelerator? The FFV looks very good to me, but I can't fit it in because
my Denise chip is already covered by another plug-in board. The plug-in
route also has a problem with different mother-board revs. One of the
recent internal memory expansion boards had a problem with the rev 6 A500
motherboard. The problem wasn't insurmountable, but it was there. The
A2000 has a defined form factor for expansions.
You're writing the heat problem off a bit too quickly. The A2000 is a fan
cooled machine while the A500 is not. Having a fan failure is a bit
different than overheating in a system that has no room for a fan to be
installed. You also write off the attached keyboard disadvantage and the
physical spare requirements as insignificant. To many people, they are
not.
There are legitimate reasons to expand on an A500 platform. There are also
legitimate reasons to take the upgrade path. It's up to the individual
user to evaluate his/her own needs/desires and make an informed choice.
David, if you believe that many people are going to buy an ATonce _and_ an
accelerator, then think again. However, I would like to see how well an
ATonce works with various '030 boards in place. As for motherboard
revision/memory, you have something here, but I believe you are talking
about the Progressive Peripherals board, which is a fairly old product.
Besides, there are not many people who will expand to 9MB (any more)
without a hard disk, which is the situation that board would be used in;
Even then, a trapdoor expansion is more pratical and reliable. The A500
user has many choices with regard to SCSI/RAM combinations.
RE:cooling.. I was not talking about fan failures in the A2000. I was
talking about overheating with a fully-functioning fan (I've never heard of
an actual fan malfunction in a 2000). Indeed, despite the fan, the A2000
box also holds a large amount of air that acts more like an insulator than
a coolant. The A500 case holds very little air, has no power supply, and
has more convection area. The more heat generated by a properly-designed
add-on, the more active convection is generated.
A detached keyboard is insignificant, and a 500 with a Supra SCSI/RAM
unit does not take up more desk space than a 2000; In fact, it's somewhat
less.
"It's up to the individual user to evaluate his/her own needs/desires…"
I agree, but you are not doing anyone a favor by immediately suggesting
to an A500 owner that their machine may be a problem to expand and to
upgrade to a 2000.
Christopher,
I would not have believed it if somebody would have told me the problems
that I was going to have expanding my A500 beforehand, either.
I tried a trap door memory expansion before I got the EXP-8000+. It
wouldn't work in my machine and had to be removed. There's another problem
in terms of performance with a trap-door ram expansion and that's because
it's on the CHIP ram bus and not the FAST ram bus.
A detached keyboard might be insignificant to you, but to many people it is
not. Another disadvantage to the attached keyboard is the stress that is
placed on the expansion connector when people pound on it, as well as when
they move the computer to adjust it. (yes, people _do_ pound on their
keyboards at times.)
Yes, convection is a valid means of cooling, _but_ when you place a circuit
board on top of a hot IC it tends to block off the air flow, no? Air _flow_
is what cools, not air volume or the lack of it.
Isn't that what I said about evaluating how far that you eventually want to
expand and make an informed choice? Quite honestly, I wish that somebody
had convinced me to change platforms _before_ I spent all that money and
time on expanding my A500. Commodore designed the A2000 to be expandable.
They only designed in a small amount of expandability into the A500. There
are some clever and ingenious A500 expansions available, but they don't
always work in all A500's. This is not to say that the vendors don't
support their products, but that it can be a major hassle simply because of
production variations between the machines. Over the long haul, the A500 is
going to be more expensive to expand than the A2000 or A3000 platforms.
I may be a bit on the conservative side, but I find your position that the
A500 is the better machine to expand upon to be erroneous from a technical
standpoint.
David
PS – the issue of whether an ATonce will work with an 020/030 board
installed is moot, since there are two C= Bridgeboards that will.
David,
The RAM issue is moot, also, since if a trapdoor won't work (and it will
unless it's defective.. My first ICD was defective and the replacement
worked perfectly) you can go with an external expansion (which is the best
choice). And please don't tell it was a C-Ltd. unit. Your experience with
the expansions you have chosen is unfortunate, however I doubt that the
majority of expanded A500s could identify with it. The EXP-8000 is, quite
frankly, as much of lemon as the Spirit devices, and I don't know of any
dealer that would recommend one (yes, I asked); Of course, these are the
same people that have sold 2052 and 2090s for the 2000..
Everytime you install an A2000 card, you are blocking airflow to other
components and harbouring still air (lots of it, in the 2000's case).
I completely disagree about expansion costs and compatability; A2000
revision-conflict problems are RAMPANT. This is not so with the 500. For
typical expansion needs like CPU, HD, and RAM, the 500 will come out
costing far less and, given that you stick with reputable brand names, less
of a risk.
My poisition that "the 500 is a better machine to expand" ? I never
claimed that. I am only pointing out that the A2000 is not necessarily
better, and that your premise of cost and compatability is ironic. I do not
find recommendations to people to re-invest in a machine, at more than
twice the cost, CONSERVATIVE especially when the original poster merely
asked about compatible expansion options for his A500; He never said he
would heavily expand or that he abused his machine and wanted a detached
keyboard. I think irresponsible pessimism is a more suitable term.
Chris,
I totally disagree with you. First, the A2000 is designed as an
internal expansion machine….no 'kludges' to add-on extras, no bus
pass-thru problems. You claim the A2000 has airflow problems…that is
definately wrong. The case is specifically designed to draw air across any
cards you may have installed in such a manner that all cards get air flow.
You claim incompatabilities…again, I believe you are wrong, all
known incompatabilities have been traced to defective hardware or part
design…not system design. You'd have the exact same incompatability if
you tried using the same parts on an A500…if you could find a place to
put the parts.
The A500 is designed for _minimal_ expansion, the A2000 is designed
for significant expansion.
Don
No, I am not "wrong". Sorry.
David said that the A2000 was less prone to overheating than the A500, to
which I pointed out that this was not necessarily true and that the A2000
had problems of it's own with temperature.
Incompatibilities exist on the A2000 due to both bad design and
motherboard differences. On the A500, they exist primarily from bad design
and it's rare that motherboard revision is ever an issue.
The reality is that an '030 board, whether a 'sanctioned' expansion or
not, works VERY WELL in the A500, and that coupled with mass-storage (HD)
and RAM it does not fall under the 'minimal' expansion category. It is also
true that the A2000 is not especially risk-free when it comes to expansion,
as many people allude to, even if it is because some (many?) products are
not up to 'specs'.
>>"…using the same [expansion] parts on an A500 [as on the A2000]"
Why? My whole point is that A500 devices do the job. I am not talking
about retrofitting A2000 devices.
>> "…all known incompatabilities have been traced to defective hardware
or part design…not system design."
That is a rather unrealistic statement. Shame on you.
Christopher,
"bad design" is kind of a catch-all statement. What, in your opinion is
poorly designed and on what is your opinion based?
David
The 2000 has problems with overheating? Interesting. In my 2000 I had a
2052, bridgboard, Supra modem, 2090, 3 HDs, and a FlickerFixer. No
overheating problems.
-sja
Chris,
When you try to run a 33 MHz chip at 50 MHz…you bet you're going
to have heating concerns. Is that GVP's problem or Commodore's?
Yes, the A2052 got warm, that wasn't an A2000 problem, that was an
A2052 problem. That's why it's no longer for sale…it was poorly
designed and generated more heat that it should have. However, it did/does
still work and I know of no cases where it caused overheating inside the
2000's case.
I run my A2000 with an A2090, an A2088 BB, MS-DOS Hard drive
controller, MS-DOS multifunction RAM expansion card, 2 Meg CHIP RAM (via
MegaChip from DKB Software) , a 5.25" floppy, a 3.5" floppy and 2 3.5" 20
Meg Hard drives (one for each side).
I have ZERO heating problems and have been running this way for
quite a long time.
BTW, why do you think folks complain about the 2000's fan making
too much noise? It makes that much noise because it's moving a lot of
air…quite adequate to cool the interior even when all slots are filled.
Don
As personal experience goes, I have had problems expanding a 500, but I've
yet to have problems expanding my 2000. Granted, there are some nice HD,
memory, BB expansions available now, but I've seen many times where someone
will purchase a 500, and then be unhappy when a new card becomes available
for the 2000 but can't use it on his 500. Sure, he can go get a Bodega Bay,
but then your getting close to the discounted price of a 2000 anyway.
John
John,
Sure, I'm unhappy that the Toaster won't fit in the A500, but I don't
need or want one anyway. Again, I never claimed that the A500 was better
for heavy expansion or esoteric devices.
>> "Sure, he can go get a Bodega Bay, but then your getting close to the
discounted price of a 2000 anyway."
No, there'll still be several hundred dollars difference… Not that I
recommend such a device (I don't). One should stick with products designed
to work with their model.
Chris,
Ever try to add a serial port to an A500?
David
The MultiPort board by DigiFex (I have their VIP Pro encoder) will add
serial, network and other ports to the 500 in one she-bang. Funny thing.. I
haven't seen many 500 users wanting for an extra port (in fact, none at
all).
Christopher,
The DigiFex board is one option. Have you tried to locate one? I finally
saw one a month or so ago at Creative Computers in Lawndale. I've not seen
one since. I don't remember if there's a bus pass-through or not on the
DigiFex A500 unit. If not, then it's out because I need a hard disk too.
I've been waiting for serial communications options ever since I got the
A500 (when they first came out) for that type of expansion. It's been long
promised but never delivered. Not even a dedicated MIDI port. It's just
another example of running into a dead-end when trying to expand an A500.
David
David,
I assume you have the EXP-8000 unit in your 500? Or perhaps the GVP?
Anyhow, if it is the exp-8000 – then yes I can see your heat concern. (see
my above message re: heat w/ exp-8000).
But, look into getting a 030 board – the CSA MMR exactly. This one does not
heat up like the EXP-8000.
Christopher: I have to agree with David Art re: his arguments about
expanding the A500. I paid a $250.00 premium when I installed my harddrive
over what the same controller and harddrive would have cost for the A2000.
I also just purchased the Applied Engineering Datalink Express modem with
Send Fax option and paid another $120.00 premium over what the A2000
internal unit would have cost. I am still left with a puny powersupply and
a desk full of components. I can upgrade my powersupply but there is
another $100.00. I am now getting very close to what the difference in
price between the A500 and the A2000 is now. I originally bought the A500
in Feb. 1988 for $579.00. At that time the A2000 was going for $1495.00
and I couldn't justify the over $900.00 difference in price. I felt that
Commodore was either undercharging for the A500 or price gouging for the
A2000. The A2000 is infinitely more convenient, but how much is a power
supply, detached keyboard and a few slots worth? Pick up any Computer
Shopper and see what the PC cases and power supplies go for. Since then,
the A2000 has come down to around $1200.00 street price and the A500 has
hung in around the $525-$550 range. Had I known then what I know now, I
would have gone to the A2000 without hesitation.
George
George,
I'm sorry you paid $250 more for your HD for your 500 than an A2000 model
(assuming your figure is correct), but I sure didn't. With regard to your
external modem.. That configuration is almost always preferable for a
couple reasons. Please don't be surprised if you learn that the internal
version is not as reliable as yours. However, I cannot believe that anyone
(except Hayes) would charge $120.00 more where the only distinction is that
it's external; Perhaps you are thinking of the price difference between w/o
SendFax vs. w/SendFax.
Would you mind telling me what kind of SCSI setup you have?
$1200 for a 2000 sounds more like a Montgomery Grant offer (who should not
be dealt with). That $525-$550 for the A500 you talk about is for a 1MB
unit, now. Mass merchandising stores (such as Leiser's in Mass.) are
carrying the 500C for as low as $499 now. Also, alot of people make the
mistake of comparing the cost of a well-expanded A500 (HD,etc) with the
cost of a bare A2000.
Christopher:
I purchased my Xetec Fastrak w/40 meg Quantum in Feb.'89 for $799.00. At
that time the Fastcard (their hardcard for the A2000) w/40 meg Quantum
could be had for $579. I bought it from Computability. I also bought the
Fastram card with 2 megs for $299. The Fastram card plugs into the
Fastrack card. The Xetec fastcard does not require a card as it has
sockets on it and that would have saved me another $100.00. The prices
have come down considerably since then and now there is approximately a
$150 spread in the HD prices and the ram card and 2 megs can be had for
around $225.00. Of course that is the norm for computer products. My
quote on the modems was in error. Those were the list prices quoted in
AE's ad on page 35 of January's AW. Prices were $349.00 for the external
Datalink Express w/MNP5 and send fax and $228.00 for the internal Datalink
2000 with MNP5 and send fax. I actually paid $229.00 for the external and
I think the internal was $177.00. You also caught me on the pricing for
the A2000. It WAS Monkey Grant's. I'm not advocating buying from them,
just that the price was available. Also remember that the A2000 is already
a 1 meg machine. All in all, you do make a valid point but so do the
proponents for buying the A2000. I would NOT repeat history and buy the
A500 if I had planned on expanding the machine. I was completely computer
illiterate (still am BTW) and I thought that the bare bones Amiga 500 would
be all that I would ever need.
George P.S. I know that prices
have changed, but I forgot to add that at the time of my A500 purchase, I
also paid $159.00 for the A501, and $150.00 for the MAST Unidrive. Both of
these have come down considerably since then and times have changed. I'm
sure that today's pricing will change as well.
George,
Thanks for clarifying your pricing figures up… It's hard to try to read
people's minds about sources when they start quoting exact figures. I
would expect a $150 price gap to be normal between A500 and A2000 SCSI
subsystems. An additional note: If I remember correctly, Xetec furnishes a
large HD chasis with their A500 unit that is capable of holding up to 3
drives; This is very much unlike the Supra and GVP units in that the drive
(as well as upto 8MB RAM) is housed in the single SCSI expansion case. The
Supra is as high as the 500 (and follows it's contour) and only 4" wide.
If you haven't yet, I strongly suggest you take a peek in the latest
AmigaWorld on the newsstand and look at the full-page ads Supra and GVP
have for their A500 SCSI units, or see one at your dealer if they carry
them yet.
PS – The GVP unit is a real beauty!
Christopher,
Yes, the new GVP Series II for the A500 is a very impressive unit. It's
also very easy to install and set-up. Their FaastPrep installation program
is exceptionally good. (I just used it on an A2000 system.) The AW ad
gives a good description of the product.
David