#S-VHS Price/Toaster
35 messages in this thread
Dear Steven,
Hey! Thanxs for the info! You wouldn't happen to have current price of the
AG-7750 (or anyone around here). If I buy two of these VCR's which editor
machine would work best in this Toaster-2 AG-7750's environment?
And how much would all this setup cost (2 AG-7750 and that editor machine).
Thanxs to everyone for their help, I'm desperate on that info!
—>JEF
I don't know how much a 7750 costs off-hand. I'm sure your local
Panasonic dealer would tho'.
As for editing software/hardware, well, there's a *lot* of
possibilities. You could look into RGB computer & Video's AmiLink, which
runs in the Amiga with the toaster, but I think it would costs nearly
$10,000 (I'm just guessing).
Or maybe a simple cuts-only type edit controller from Panasonic (the
A750 I think). It may have a GPI trigger which would fire a Toaster effect
for a transition, but with only one source VTR you wouldn't have much to
transition between–only still frames, black or white, etc.
<-SJK->
The Amilink program runs for about $4,000 – $5,000 depending on where you
go… There is even a consumer version which offers you almost all of the
same features… Check it out… I almost went with it, but there was no
support in my area (NH) Chris
Pan 7750 $4750 steet. Amilink for toaster with cuts only is about $8K.
Kinda a rip – but i because they use the V-LAN hardware which is where most
of the cost is.
wmc
Thanxs Wayne!
But isn't the AmiLink solution more expensive than the hard solution? I
mean, suppose I get two AG-7750's and get a Panasonic Editor to control
them; how much would that cost? (I won't be doing A/B roll for now)…
Do you have a clear winner between JVC 811 and the AG-7750 (I've been
following your chat with Jonathan Hirschman), or you still have some "tips"
to check out?
—>JEF
Jorge, AmiLink will be more expandable, but definitily more expensive than
the Panasonic controller whether you go for the 770 (A/B roll) or the 750
(insert).
As for a clear winner, I don't have one. And if I procrastinate long
enough, the JVC 822 will be out and the waters will really get muddied!!
(Too many toys….)
wmc
WOW! I've running too much lately! Couldn't get through here sinc Friday…
Thanxs Wayne, you're saving me a lot of going arounds. I guess I owe you a
coffee <grin>… And how abo, you wouldn't happen to know the cost of the
AG-750, do ya? (That'll be the cookies with the coffee I owe you…
—>JEF
Nope, not the 750, but the AG-770 (A/B roll) is about $1925, so I'd guess
the 750 is about $1400.
wmc
Thanxs Wayne… I think you are going to use the video setup for the same
arena that I will. (I think U mentioned somewhere you would be doing
Educational/Training sutff) It really is great to work with AVision in that
type of projects… And if you have any problem with AV just give me a
call…
—>JEF
Jorge,
Thanks for the word on Avision. Y feliz Navidad.
wmc
Jorge,
I think I goofed. I believe the AG-750 is a single event cuts only
controller. The Ag-770 is a multi-event cuts only cntroller at the $1950
or so price. The AG-800 is the A/B roll controller at $3157. That does
not include the AG-SW800 A/B Roll switcher it connects to that stands
between the decks and th controller. I'm not sure the Toaster would be a
substitute as it appears the AG-800 has two GPI triggers to controll the
switcher for A/B roll and the Toaster only has one GPI input. It appears
that the AG-SW800 is required to get both source decks rollint
simultaneously so they hit the a/b transition at the correct edit in/out
points.
As far as I can tell (and some video wizzes here should correct me if I am
mispeaking) it appear that to do A/B roll you also need a sync or black
burst generator (not very expensive) and a distibution amp (about $2.5K –
$3K) to get the sync to the two source decks (or actually all the sources,
live or taped). What I am curious about is if, bieng careflu about cable
lengths, the Amiga mono video output could be split and used in place of a
synch and D/A set-up.
wmc
Wayne–
About your blackburst/sync A/B roll question:
I can understand locking up both decks (if they have a sync input) using
a sync generator…but why the need for the DA? Most sync/blackburst
generators have several outputs – the DA is already built in, for intents
and purposes. For instance, Horita makes some inexpensive units that have
3 or 4 outputs…
Does this shed some light?
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan,
Excellent news!! I had hoped to find a multi-output black-burst generator
as the D/A's I had information on supported many more ouputs than I will
ever need, and I had no information on straight synch generators.
Any idea where I could get some model numbers/specs on B B generators with
2-4 outputs?
thanks for the Info on Horita.
wmc
Wayne–
Just hit the video mags…I've seen these things in ads…cannot vouch for
how good they are…
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jorge,
I'm jumping into this thread a bit late but have some direct experience
with your JVC/Panasonic question.
Although I can't compare to 7750 with the 811 I have had experience with
both companies. I started out in Pre-S-VHS days with all Panasonic VHS
stuff (3 decks, camera, controller). I became so fed up with technical
support and factory service that I trashed it all and bought JVC (BRS-810,
611, 411, RM-86U). The few times I've called JVC Tech support or factory
service they were knowledable and helpful.
As for the JVC equipment–I've never had a problem and have been quite
satisfied. Even thought Panasonic has a larger market share (I think) I've
_generally_ heard more good words about the JVC stuff. But then again, I'm
biased!
Good Luck!
Bill.
P.S. 1/2" tape tip to remember: ALWAYS leave 5 minutes of bars or black on
the front of any edit or camera master!
Say, has anyone had any experience with the MediaPhile hardware or
software? If so, I'd like to ask a few questions. I have their overview
brochure here, and it looks like it will do what I want (boy do they have a
selection of control hardware!), but actual experience from users in the
field can't be beat. Let me know if you'd be willing to answer a question
or two… thanks.
–jp–seattle–
Bill,
I read with interest your comparison, and, as Wayne put it on a past
respond, he quoted that the JVC had a better price comparison too.
I'm already on my deadline (I've got to make a decision before January
15th) and, thanxs to Wayne, I've got all the prices and serial numbers of
the Panansonic machines.
Can you please tell me the serial numbers of JVC's hardware editors (cuts
only & A/B Roll) and it's street price (if you happen to have them or
anyone around?)
I have these specs already :
JVC BRS-811 Player/Recorder $3675
JVC BRS-611 Player $2715 (source) These are street
prices…
So please which would be the editor's serial (BRS-XXX) for A/B Roll and
cuts-only editors, and it's street prices???
—>JEF
(Maybe YOU Wayne wouldn't happen to have that info too, woulda ya?!)
Jorge,
I don't know the numbers or prices on the A/B Roll stuff–when you get to
that point there are many options.
As far as cuts only JCV has two controller, the RM86U which I paid $1144
for about 2 years ago and there's another on that goes RMG10XU or something
like that, this one sells for about $1000 more. I don't think it does
significantly more then the RM-86U but it seems to be built a little
better.
I paid $4431 for a BRS810U and $2730 for the BRS611U–again about 2 years
ago. While I'm at it I paid $2491 for the BRS411U (S-VHS portable).
I don't know what your application is but for mostlow to mid level
training, educational and corporate stuff A/B roll is not necessary. Using
the Toaster's still store and some imagination a VERY slick presentation
can be put together. Again I don't what your doing but I would probaly be
more advantageous to put the money into good lighting equipment and
microphones. All aspects of production are equally important–don't neglect
one for the other.
Also, When figuring out dealines keep in mind that it can take as many a
three weeks to receive an order once you've placed it especially when
you're dealing with the discount houses.
–bill.
Bill,
What is your audio set-up? This is the area of the production cycle that I
still have much fog to dispel.
wmc
Wayne,
Sorry for this late reply–we closed down for a few days.
I'm glad to see my Panicsonic/JVC adventures may benefit someone. I learned
the hard way. As I mentioned I really don't know which machine is better
but our policy is if it says "Panisonic" we don't buy it–period.
As far as audio I'm still wrestling with that myself. So far I'm using a
Fostex X-15 Multitracker 4-track cassette recorder/mixer. I haven't been
really happy with it. One of the biggest problems is that it distorts
sudden peaks that the decks would have no problem with. If your dealing
with audio that has many peaks (which can happen alot in location shooting)
the Fostex destroys them. I also tried a Tascam (Porta-One) with much the
same results.
The source deck feeds into the mixer section which lets me control volume,
tone and pan between channels. Very often I'll only want one track from the
source to go to both tracks on the edit deck. This lets me do that.
Sometimes (but not very often) I'll also mix in other audio on the fly.
On location I always use 2 microphones–one AT lav and one (short)
shotgun–each on it's own audio track. I usually end up using only the lav
in post but I like to have both. It really depends on what's being shot. So
far I've always gotten by with this settup. Idealy I should have more mic's
and a location mixer–someday.
Other audio elements (i.e. non-sync) I always lay down on the hi-fi tracks
of a VHS tape and lay them down a piece at a time with the editor. I use
this method for V/O, music, FX or anything that's not sync.
The most important piece of advice regarding audio is DO NOT USE CHEAP
MICROPHONES. Microphone is one place you cannot cut corners. I know, I
tried!
I hope this helped a little. If not, be a little more specific and I'll try
again.
Bill.
Bill:
For your onsite shoots, don't either of the multitrack cassette recorders
you've tried have an ALR input setting for auto adjusting the peaks (sort
of averages them in so that they don't distort)? I don't know if you can
get an add-on to do that or not. You might want to post a message in the
consumer electronics forum and see what others are using.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
No, most mixers/multitracks don't offer limiters. I don't use the
multitrack for location work. All audio goes directly into the portable
VTR. The problem arises in post. With the levels set (on the multitrack)
for optimum audio recording, the occasional peak gets distorted heavily. I
pulled the multitrack out of the loop to isolate the problem–the VTR's
handles the signal fine. The problem is that the lesser expensive mixers
just don't have the same headroom as the VTR's. The solution is a better
mixer. Until I can afford one I just have to play real close attention to
the levels.
This exemplifies what I've always considered to most important lesson I've
learned since starting out in video: You Get What You Pay For!
Bill.
"You Get What You Pay For!"
Bill, you're right. I should think you'd be able to pick up a pretty good
mixer on the used market.
Anyway, I picked up the latest issue of Avid/Amiga Video Journal today,
and lo & behold there is a feature article on SOUND for video. I haven't
read it yet, but if I see something interesting, I'll pass it on. (VOL 2
Issue #8)
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Bill, Thanks for the "sound" advice (sorry – its a disease – couldn't
resist :^})
My audio needs are less critical at the moment. But I am saving your
reply, and when the time comes I'll probably come back at ya for some more
microphone words.
wmc
Bill,
Thanxs for the info. You ask what type of apps I;ll be doing, I thought I
told you before, but I haven;t. My job will consist of doing MultiMedia
training systems and exposition for industries and companies of all kinds.
I need the video equipment to develop videos for those Multimedia systems
to be pressed on Laser Disk or to be shown through a PC-VCR connected to
the AMIGA.
I have been using AVision to integrate and make the presentations
interactive, I think it is a wonderful piece of software.
—!JEF 'exit
Jorge,
I must admit that I can't recall why I asked for your application (oops!).
If I wasn't able to answer one of your question (and that's why I asked you
for your application) could you please remind me what it was?
If someone else already answered it, then don't bother.
Sorry…
Bill.
Hmmmm Bill,
I don't remember either why you asked for my app… ;O}
Guess we're moving around too quickly…
—>JEF
O.K. FOr the 811/611 edit controllers:
Simple multi-event controller (uses elapsed time edit in/out points): RMG
810U $1610; uses JVC 45 pin parallel connector. This is a disadvantage
if you plan to ever connect to another company's decks.
Multi-event controller (uses time code for edit in/out points) that can
have two source decks with alternating selection (i.e. not A/B roll): RMG
850U I don't have a quote for it but based on SRP, the street is probably
about $2100. It uses a 9 pin connector which I assume is a serial
interface. That means you would probably have to use the SAF-911U with
each deck (shich you would need for time code anyway).
A/B Roll controller with time code based editing and a RS-422 (industry
standard serial control): RMG-860 Preliminary price is $2915 street,
however one of the three dealers I talked to said it would not be out
until February.
BTW, it looks like you need a GPI triggered swithcher to do the A/B switch.
The Toaster supports this. I'm not sure if JVC's SA-W700U AV switcher is
the hardware option for this or not (and it is SRP $1800 so street is
probably $1200- $1500).
wmc
Thanxs Wayne.
Through my conversation with you and with Bill Nobes, I think I have a
winner for now in the struggle you started.
By the way, yowouldn;t happen to have JVC;s phone number (or does anyone
here)? And if it;s a FAX number, better yet! I;ll call to see some
brochures for the BRS-811/611 system…
Thanxs everyone!!!!!!!! ——-!JEF
Jorge,
I'd give you the regional opffice for you but I don't know where you are.
The main JVC numbers are: 800-JVC-5825, FAX 201-523-2077
wmc
Thanxs again, Wayne!
—>JEF (I'll talk to you later)
Bill,
I was the one who originally asked the JVC/Panasonic question as I am
wrestling with the 811 vs 7750 decision. The experiences you recount are
generally what I've also heard from others. However, you are the first to
have owned both companies equipment and your observations therefore carry
more weight than the persons from one camp who only speak from brand
loyalty (or dealership incentives). Thanks for your input.
BTW, when I called Panasonic for info on their Industrial S-VHS stuff, I
got a very peaved NYC female who sent me out-of-date literature and none
on the 7650/7750 that I specifically asked for. She also left out the
price list and list of dealers in my area. JVC, on the other hand sent me
all the information, put me in touch with a tech on a question the
marketers couldn't answer, then had the regional sales rep follow up with
addtional information on a new product that fell in the area in which I was
interested. That kind of treatment prejudiced me in favor of JVC 5top
begin with. The question that started the thread was to make sure I didn't
let that prejudice blind me to some overriding technical/reliability
reason to choose one over the other. Your reply has helped alot.
Thanks again.
wmc
Count me in with John Pendergrass – I'd like any first hand report on
Mediaphile's editor stuff. The ad's sound good, but ya know how that
goes…
wmc
Wayne, yeah, a report from a user would go a long ways to convincing me to
spring for some of their stuff. Actually, my research into it has nothing
to do with video production, but rather with control of different
audio/video consumer (and prosumer) gear available. I want to be able to
fully control a home AV environment from the Amiga, ideally by putting
together off the shelf components.
For instance, MediaPhile offers a 'Tape Deck Counter Sense Cable' that will
interface with quite a few consumer VCR's. This supposedly brings in the
counter on the VCR to the computer as a readable #, so that the other
software can FF, Rewind, etc to the proper place. They advertise IR
control of misc decks…. and direct control of the Sony (via the 'S'
port). Since their IR controller is teachable (ie. like a learning
remote), then I suppose one could use it to control AV Receivers, CD
players, etc as well, right? In short, I want to be able to put together a
complete Amiga controlled AV environment.
I suppose calling them again is the first order of biz! If you're really
interested in their stuff, I'd suggest you call them and ask for their
'MediaPhile Desktop Video System Overview Manual – Release 2.0 July 1991'.
They'll send it to you for free, and it gives a pretty good feel for what
they do. But nothing replaces a good honest recommendation from someone
who has USED it! 🙂
–jp–seattle–
John, Soon as I get back from a vacation I will be giving them a call. I
think I need to call RGB again as well as there is a CI version of AmiLink
which is supposedly "low cost" (I thikn around $1500).
wmc