CompuServe Thread

#Woca Toronto news?

17 messages in this thread
#123782From: Chris N.JulsonDec 3, 1993 8:19 AM
Anyone care to comment on Woca in Toronto? What new and interest'n stuff was unveiled? Did Centaur show the OV modules and (dare I ask) announce a date for release? How 'bout Cd32? Thanks alot, Chris J.—–>on AutoPilot
#123783From: Jim OgilvieDec 3, 1993 8:33 AM
Chris… The show starts in 40 minutes from the time of your posting, so I wouldn't expect to hear anything substantial until the end of the day. If no one else posts, I'll do so tonight. Jim
#124057From: Nathan WahlDec 6, 1993 7:27 AM
Chris, Was at WOCA, here's what I gathered in no particular order: -Lou Eggbrecht's speech was mostly on the CD 32, which was selling pretty briskly for more than I thought it would. CD32 will play both types of movie-on-disk (a Philips-type CD was played), and the full motion card will be available soon (being manufactured). Got a lot of good response on other features, but was a tad technical for me. Showed a UK commercial for CD32 – almost got a standing ovation; obvious comment was "when here?" CD 32 architecture is very open. He got a thundering round of applause when he mentioned something about the people in the hall starting a revolt (I think he knows exactly what is going on)! AAA chipset is actually in silicon, 95% bug free but workable. Lotsa techy details here, capability sounds good. Something about 30M pixels per second, I dunno. -Nucleus Personal Editor will be out soon. Real soon. Really soon! (The HW is done, in CMOS on the cable, not on the development board. I looked). I played with it; seems pretty straightforeward. Has an auto-pseudo A/B roll function. Their real A/B setup shouldn't be too long in coming, I suspect, and it STILL won't use a slot!!! (Nice for 4000 users.) -Scala, NewTek and SunRise had big booths, the rest were prety normal. Didn't see a whole lot of new stuff anywhere, but quite a few vendors, some really recognizable names and a fairly large crowd were in evidence. Attendance at the seminars was heavy. That's about all I recall right now. Didn't check out Centaur, sorry. Someone else jump in here with a better memory? … Nate, Emerald Video
#124067From: Jim OgilvieDec 6, 1993 8:13 AM
Nate… Other notables at the show would be the Fuzzy Logic people with their somewhat questionable Lightrave product. They had a booth and were selling Lightrave from there. Other vendors included Jim Drew showing Emplant (was nice to finally be able to see it), Soft Logik showing Pagestream (available first quarter of 94). Axiom was showing Animation Workshop, version 2 (which I bought). GVP was showing their usual boatload of stuff, including ImageFX 1.5 which of course is a very cool program. The Commodore booth was very unexciting. Standard machines running standard applications. I'm sure it was all they could do to just make sure they had a booth. But I wonder if all that expense was really worth it? After all, CBM was showing apps. that the vendors themselves are showing on the show floor. The CBM booth seemed to be the least packed area of the show at any given time. A real yawner. CD32 IS cool. Now, will the Sega and Nintendo type game makers write for it? If not, it's doomed. It runs rings around most anything out there, so we shall see if that's enough to get them interested. About this time next year, we should have a really good idea. If someone makes a killer game for it, that would really help. People have been known to buy systems like this based on 1 killer game. The mpeg card might be the key there, I dunno. Overall, the show was good, informative. Lots of video cards (Picasso II, Piccolo, etc) around to be seen. Jim
#124075From: Steve AhlstromDec 6, 1993 11:41 AM
The following was posted in comp.sys.amiga.advocacy by Kevin Roll … —————- Ahh, hard to believe that eight hours ago I was standing in the midst of the World of Commodore Toronto… I took some notes during Lew Eggebrecht's keynote address, here's what I thought was important. A lot of what he said was old news as far as technical information, but there were some interesting points. The first part centered around CD32. As Darryl already reported, they have just started making the NTSC units, and only had a few for the show. Apparently half of the shipment got delayed at Customs. Lew reported that CD32 is the number 1 selling CD platform in Europe. He also said that there are 120 licencees developing titles, and that Commodore has spent absolutely no money subsidizing any of them (as they did with CDTV). I think this is very good news. Next, he began to talk about the MPEG module, and how there are two standards – Video CD and Philip's standard. He then stated that C='s solution was to play them both, which brought a round of applause! The FMV card is in production, with 2000 units expected by next week (kiss my ass Barrett). The first round are all going to France, where they have a guarenteed order for some large project (this last bit overheard from a rep on the floor). The discussion then turned to the AAA chipset. As previously reported by C= employees, the first silicon has been made. Lew stated that it has > 95% functionality already, and is "darn close" to completion. The wonderful 24-bit images are being blitted with incredible speed. He said that all 4 chips have tiny bugs that are being worked out. In the next 2 weeks, two of the chips will go for second-pass silicon, with the other two being sent by the end of January. Systems based on these AAA chips will be released on a time schedule dependant on the performance of the second-pass silicon. He hoped that this would mean around next fall. As far as the systems go, Lew *confirmed* that the Intel PCI bus standard has been chosen. This will allow a processor-independent architecture, with the 68060 first and then an undetermined RISC processor later. In other news, a cost-reduced version of the A4000 has been engineered and released to manufacturing. Also, C= is pushing hard on the A4000T to get it going. C= is working on the CD-ROM drives for the 1200 and 4000, with the 1200 having priority. Lew said that the 1200 would be internal, and the 4000 would be a Zorro card + external drive. The clincher was that the 4000 version would include the FMV card! He anticipated these models being available next spring. Someone asked about the DSP technology – Lew indicated that it had been licensed out, but that it would be on the motherboard of the AAA systems. Also, as previously stated, AAA sound will be 8-voice, 16-bit, 100kHz sample rate. Lew then really freaked me out by telling us all that C= is already looking *beyond* AAA. Their goal is to do real-time 3D rendering, with a target of 30 million pixels/sec. To do this, they are designing their own 3D pipeline scheme. This is serious Silicon Graphics territory, and I was amazed to discover they are planning this. Someone also asked about Photo CD. Lew said that a license had been arranged with Philips, but not executed yet. Development is underway, and something will be out after the 1st of next year. The last question was the eternal, "will there be a laptop Amiga?" Lew said there are no plans for now, but as the AAA chipset is entirely CMOS, it lends itself much better to that sort of thing. Now if they can get a 24-bit LCD… As far as my initial impression of CD32, I thought it was great. The demos and games they had available were certainly exciting. They had the dinosaur morph demo that has been previously described, the flight demo, and four games to be played – Pinball Fantasies, D/Generation, RoboCod, and something else I forget. One other machine was playing a football game, and an MPEG machine had a really cool game going whose title I never heard. It was like a Fantastic Voyage theme, with the player cruising through an artery blasting stuff. The MPEG stuff they showed during Lew's talk was excellent. They had about a 15-foot screen set up, and the clarity was brilliant. They were using the Paramount Star Trek 6 CD for a demo, and it looked great. They also showed the European commercial with the exploding robot, which brought another tremendous round of applause. Overall, the show was lots of fun. Commodore is certainly not dead, and the CD32 looks poised to take off like a rocket. Throw in Zool, the Ninja from the Nth Dimension dancing to the techno coming from Newtek's booth (Toaster is God, repeat after me) and you have a recipe for fun. Also, I won a free CD from SunRize and one of the PD houses had my game for sale. Well, I'm babbling now so I'll conclude. — — /// A4000/040 |…../\ NEW RIVER | AMIGA// Author: |…/ \O| GORGE | \\\/// New World |../ | Bridge Day | \XX/ |/ / \ '93 | ————— -sja
#124089From: Joe LoweryDec 6, 1993 3:46 PM
Steve – I've seen a couple of messages referring to the FMV card and think that it is vaguely video oriented. Can you tell me exactly what it is? – Joe
#124094From: Steve AhlstromDec 6, 1993 4:17 PM
FMV = Full Motion Video.
#124095From: Dale LarsonDec 6, 1993 4:18 PM
FMV – Full Motion Video. MPEG. Feature-length movies on CD-ROMs. Most of the advantages of laser disks (quality only about equal to VHS though) without the cost — significantly cheaper than video tapes in fact. It is entirely possible that pre-recorded VHS video tape is about to go the way of the vinyl albumn. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing — INTERNET:dale@iam.com
#124106From: Jim OgilvieDec 6, 1993 7:09 PM
"Significantly cheaper than video tapes…" Hardly. Go out and price one of these CD-based movies. They are in the same price league as laserdiscs. For CD-based movies to be priced the same or similar to video tapes, they will have to enjoy the same economies of scale, which won't be for years, if ever. Jim
#124113From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPDec 6, 1993 8:52 PM
"…if ever…" You really believe that? I can see that since there are so few CD-based movies out there that the prices are high now. I would think that since it's just an MPEG stream on the disc, it couldn't be that tough to master, and the prices to make the discs would be a lot cheaper in the long run, certainly cheaper than video tapes, and much higher quality. …These movies are just MPEG video/audio streams on disc, right? Or did I miss something? Steve
#124129From: Jim OgilvieDec 6, 1993 11:06 PM
Steve… There is SO much more to the equation. Example: I own a Sega Genesis. Throughout the life of the machine, the carts have cost around 50 bucks, average. Now that Sega CD is out, the CD games are around 60 bucks, average. Why is that? After all, the hardware in the cart is at least 20 times more expensive than the hardware that makes up a compact disc. The Sega CD games are not going to enjoy the economies of scale. But, even if they did, I doubt the price would come down. After all, Sega knows that we'll pay 50-60 bucks for a CD game…so why charge less? It can also be justified by it's new wiz-bang-ness…it's new, it's CD, its high tech…thusly, there is a cost premium involved. Also, people have said that MPEG is equal to VHS quality, or S-VHS. Well, I tend to disagree (at least, the MPEG movies I have seen). First of all, the conversion from the film to the MPEG stream is a frame conversion that is not 1:1. It's 24 frames per second being converted to 30 frames per second. You can occasionally catch where this makes a difference. Also, MPEG by nature will screw up some minor detail in images, when converting the frames. I watched Star Trek Six on CD playing on the CD32, and there was clearly some artifacting happening around the edge of someone's hands as they moved in a particular scene. Minor, sure, but videophiles are NOT going to adopt this technology. It's already been poo-poo'ed in the CEForum. There are several odds stacked against the MPEG technology from a home video point of view. If it is going to make it in the consumer market, a player has to be made available that is dirt cheap. Maybe this WILL happen, since it doesn't need to be able to record. Of course, the fact that it cannot record might make it a less than desirable consumer product (for viewing movies only, I mean). So, unless a cheap player comes out, it hasn't a chance in the consumer market (again, strictly speaking as a movie player). In the pro-sumer, videophile type markets, it's too low quality to bother with. Laser disc is still the way to go, and unless a new technology emerges that beats laser disc, videophiles won't be switching anytime soon. This doesn't even take into account the whole structure in place for VHS movie rental places, etc. Who is going to take the first step to get the thousands of movies in stock that use this new technology, and will the movie houses make their new titles available on videoCD? Sure, it is all a wait and see kind of thing, but my money is against it. I suspect it will go the way of digital compact casette, or CD+G. It's nifty, it's keen, but to invest in a machine to play this new stuff just won't make sense to the millions out there who don't care about CD-I, CD32, or anything else that has these capabilities. Jim
#124135From: Don Curtis/SYSOPDec 7, 1993 12:22 AM
Jim, The 24 – 30 frames per sec isn't really an issue. Look at a video tape of a film in frame by frame mode. The film is converted to video by repeating every 4th frame as the 5th frame. The same would be true for (or something similar) any conversion of a 24fps film to the 30fps needed for NTSC video. However, in my opinion, you're pretty close to the mark on the rest of your posting. Until you can record your own FMV laser ROMs, tape will still be quite plentiful. For a comparison…hasve audio tape recorders disappeared with the advent of audio CD's? Of course not, and in their case…a typical cassette tape is far, far lower in quality than a CD. In fact, that was the impetus behind DAT tapes…to raise the quality while retaining the ability to record. Without the ability to record, magnetic type media (VHS, digital VHS, etc.) will continue to be a major portion of the video marketplace. CD32 may be a great seller as a game playing machine, but I don't see it, or anything like it…becoming a replacement for a VCR. In fact, I believe thaat pre-recorded movies on CD will become simply a curiosity, not a major use of something like CD32. At best…that capability would be used to copy CD video onto video tape. Don
#124151From: Dale LarsonDec 7, 1993 7:11 AM
I never said that VCRs are going away. I said that Video Tape rental will be going away. The motivation isn't on the part of the consumer, it's on the part of the video rental stores. They have to replace eaten tapes, rewind them, store them, etc. CD-FMV has huge advantages in all these areas and is cheaper to boot. They'll be pushing the change. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing — INTERNET:dale@iam.com
#124121From: Joe LoweryDec 6, 1993 9:54 PM
Dale – Any notion as to seek/access time? One of the problems I noticed with seek times on Laserdisc is you have a second or two lag. Would the FMV be faster? Is FMV a card with MPEG decompression that allows compressed video to play from a CD-ROM? And they are saying that it is imminent? (I tried three times to spell that word and I think I've still got it wrong.) – Joe
#124149From: Dale LarsonDec 7, 1993 7:02 AM
Seek times are the same as for any other CD. It can vary with the player, I don't know details. Yes. Yes. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing — INTERNET:dale@iam.com
#124284From: Karl F. KugelDec 8, 1993 4:25 AM
There are supposed to be 50-60 movies out in the CD format. Thank Phillips, which paid for the conversion. // -Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
#124097From: Marlene Zenker/SYSOPDec 6, 1993 4:28 PM
FMV = Full Motion Video …. It's a gizmo that can play back the video from the CD. I believe it uses MPEG technology. Steve