#Wavefront vs. 3DS
23 messages in this thread
To all who have helped me out so far:
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
The forum messages, mail messages, phone calls and faxes are evidence
that this forum is chock full of outstanding humans. I'm confident
that I can put on a show that will prove 3DS's capabilities to my
firm. I cross my fingers in anticipation of the pending decision.
I've said this before, my firm is run by some of the finest minds of
the 19th Century.<g> If the firm chooses to bring in an outsider to
run Wavefront I'll be posting a note here looking for a new job.
Thanks Gary, Jack – Yost Group
Thanks to John Ellis
Thanks to Greg Pyros
Thanks to Rachel Rosenthal
Thanks to Roger Cusson
Thanks to Martin Foster's lager
Thanks to Martha @Synergis
Thanks to all @ Autodesk
You can bet I'll keep you posted on the outcome.
Bob Ritger
>> Thanks Gary, Jack – Yost Group
Thanks to John Ellis
Thanks to Greg Pyros
Thanks to Rachel Rosenthal
Thanks to Roger Cusson
Thanks to Martin Foster's lager
Thanks to Martha @Synergis
Thanks to all @ Autodesk<<
Sniff…Sniff.. Well…I tried. <g> Murph'
Murph'
Omission from the thank you list is what you get for being the first to help
out!<g>
Update for all:
I put together a small show and managed to give it to about 25% of our
main office staff (about 50 people) I had images created by
Wavefront and 3DS and simply tested everybody on which images they
thought were created by the "high end" system or the "low end".
Literally to a man/woman no one could make a distinction! 70%
guessed that the 3DS images had to have been created on the high end
system. A few people I tested were members of the executive
committee and I could see the light bulb come on when they realised
that it was impossible to make a distinction.
Momentum is starting to shift but I've learned not to get too optimistic.
A gig of thanks Murph'
Bob
Bob:
That's great news! Just goes to show that we aren't just making it up, it is
true!
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] 13-Dec-93 at 3:48a PST
Bob!
>>> A few people I tested were members
of the executive committee and I could see "the light bulb come on when"
_they realised_ <<<
Isn't this inconsistant with the "Peter Principle" that is to say that the term
_they realized_ is generally at odds with the description "executive commitee"
also that the term "the light bulb came on" would almost never apply to anyone
in the Architectural Disipline..as it is applied to "self-realized" Men. <g>
Murph'
We've been looking at Wavefront and I'm interested to hear that you can't tell
the difference between Wavefront and 3D Studio animations.
Could you share a couple more details?
In particular, was there a dramatic difference between the two platforms as far
as production time? I would imagine Wavefront would claim to be able to do
things simply that would be very complex in 3D Studio. Do you find that to be
true?
Also, I wonder if your particular task was or was not a good fit for the power
of Wavefront? As an example, you wouldn't buy a silver chalice to drive a
nail, but it would be great for pouring libations. Sorry to be so poetic, but
hopefully it makes the right analogy for the question I'm trying to ask.
Perhaps Wavefront would be incredible for engine pistons but so-so for
architectural walkthroughs (?)
— Jerry Waxler
Wavefront and the hardware required to run it is very expensive, as I'm sure
you are aware. For just a fraction of the cost of a decent SGI, like the
Crimson VGXT or Indigo2 you can get a network of pentiums up and running that
will give a single SGI a good run for its money on an animation rendering
session.
While Wavefront has certain advantages over 3D Studio as far as features
offered, it is hardly a fair comparison, since the cost is so totally out of
proportion. Not only that, but Wavefront's key new feature, kinemation, is
still not being shipped (vaporware for non-beta sites). And the Wavefront
modeler is not all that easy to use. Many people find non-organic stuff a lot
easier to do in 3D Studio, but for organic forms a spline based modeler like
Wavefront has is definitely an advantage.
And 3D Studio's new renderer is really excellent. I cannot tell the difference
in many situations between stuff rendered on Wavefront and 3D Studio. The main
difference is when you start using Wavefront's features that make the
renderings look way less computer generated. But as far as 3D Studio goes,
it's just a matter of folks writing the right IPAS routines.
I was just at a large firm that uses Wavefront and SGI's exclusively for their
animations, and they're having a bad year, financially, while many 3DS based
firms are raking in the bucks. Perhaps the performance/price ratio brings the
two closer together when it comes to a buisness/financial situation. Of course
there are companies using high-end expensive equipment that do very well, but I
think 3D Studio is definitely taking a bite out of the previously "high-end"
market.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
I'll Second that one John,
We're currently testing Wavefront/TDI, Alias, and SoftImage software for our
SGI boxes and I haven't seen ONE of those software platforms (Running on an
Indigo Extreme) beat my DX266 running 3DS3 in a render test. The spline
modelling IS cool and I wish that 3DS had refraction mapping, but for rendering
speed for the money and bang for the buck, 3D Studio is my tool of choice.
El Mundo Loco,
Spencer Lindsay
Atari Games
You're actually saying that you have 3DS rendering faster on a DX2-66 than you
do on a R4400-150? I have to tell you that after extensive testing all of the
platforms you mentioned render alot faster on comparable settings than 3DS.
It's the platform as much as anything else. Now considering the $35,000 price
tag, obviously you could compare a number of Pentiums against an Indigo2, but
the sheer math calculation speed of the SGI allows it to kick the crap out of
all current Intel based chips.
Most of the software that you mentioned generally renders well over twice as
fast on a R4000 based Indigo2 with comparable ram.
I'm really interested in your test data, polygon count, rendering parameters,
and speed comparisons.
Paul
Paul,
Lemme compile it and get back to you after the holidays.
Cheers!
Spencer Lindsay
Atari Games
Jerry,
Glad to meet you at the first meeting of the Philadelphia 3DS Users Group the
other night. Martha Lubow at your office knows a lot of the battle I've been
embroiled in lately.
>>>We've been looking at Wavefront and I'm interested to hear that you can't
tell the difference between Wavefront and 3D Studio animations.<<<
It's not that_I_couldn't tell the difference it's the people I showed a demo to
couldn't tell the difference. I showed them architectural still images not
animations for their comments and the difference was not apparent to anyone I
showed the demo to.
There are a few things that would make wavefront faster for the setup of an
animation. Since the software runs on processors that currently outpace the PC
platform the previewing, test rendering and similar functions seem faster.
This processor speed difference seems to be closing quickly. For specifically
architectural animations I can't come up with too many significant differences
that would make production time savings dramatic for Wavefront. For animation
rendering speed 3D Studio with network rendering has the potential to be faster
for me than Wavefront because I have many PC processors at my disposal already.
As far as whether or not Wavefront is a good fit for my particular task. It
does all that I need to do and way too much more. It costs a %^&^%$# fortune
and therefore is not what I have found to be a good value for what I need to
do. With network rendering, excellent output, great documentation and this
awesome forum, I believe that 3D Studio is the best solution for my firm.
For a more detailed comparison Greg Pyros may be able to help you out. He has
both packages and could speak about many other types of animation not
specifically architectural. I hope Greg doesn't mind me pointing you his way
but he really has been able to do a first hand evaluation of the two programs.
What do you have in mind that you might entertain shelling out the big bucks
for Wavefront?
Bob
I don't think Greg has Wavefront. Paul Lind at Anim8 does, however, and I've
used both packages, although my Wavefront experience is pretty minimal. I
think Wavefront is a bad deal unless you're doing a lot of complex organic
modelling, data entry simulations, or (someday soon) character animation that
would require inverse kinematics and motion tracking input. For that stuff
it's pretty excellent, though I think Alias and SoftImage may be a little
better in the modelling and animation department.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
I was really trying to keep my head down on the Wavefront use, I'm a 3DS fan
first!<g>
Alias is a great modeler, SoftImage is quickly losing ground. Wavefront's
kinemation has a ton of stuff that blows away SoftImage. After comparing them
for a couple of months and trying both of them, Wavefront was a clear cut
winner. SoftImage seems to be spending all of their time on non-linear editing
for the SGI platform instead of improving their animation software. Plus
SoftImage support really sucks. But dollar for dollar 3DS is still king in my
book, and any further discussion regarding animation packages on this forum
will have to be strictly 3DS or keep me out of it.<G>
In watching the thread, I'd have to say that the gentleman who originally
inquired about this has only one clear cut choice and that is 3D Studio. The
Yost Group has the most phenomenal package around, and every day I ask myself
why they don't charge $30,000 for it, so I could keep out the competition.
For architectural use especially, 3DS is "THE" ticket for the animation
environment!
Paul
I wasn't aware that Wavefront had caught up to SoftImage so well. I'd heard
different from other sources, but that was a while ago, and I don't think
kinemation was available. I thought it was still not being shipped, but I
guess I was wrong (or did you have a beta release?).
While I would kill for some of the advanced features of Alias and Wavefront
it's just becoming a ridiculously expensive propostion considering the new
alternative: 3D Studio/IPAS.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
I'd kill for a decent modeler, with the power of Alias….
Now that the renderer kicks butt… => => => R4 wishlist!!!!!!!… #-)
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
I added NURBS for nerds to my wishlist file already. Simultaneous polygon and
nurbs models, a la Alias/Wavefront/Softimage.
John,
We really shouldn't discuss other packages,IMHO, on this forum.
The only thing that SI ever had that others didn't was solid inverse
kinematics, but the SI IK has always been in sore need of reworking. The IK
interafce is lunky and vastly limited. Close to 20 features of IK that are
pretty standard even in small PC and AMIGA based packages are non-existent in
SI.
Additionally, the only thing that SI "really" claims as fame is Jurassic and
the guys at ILM used it for a very limited part. Alias was the modeler,
Renderman was the renderer, Some Parrallax stuff was used as well as 150-200
custom routines. Soooooo don't believe the hype!<g> Dennis and his crew can
afford to use whatever someone decides to give them 100 copies of<g>.
We talked to around 75 current SI users and close to 70 said that Wave's new IK
kicks the SH*t out of SI. Additionally we were looking at 5 seats approximately
$300,000, and SI would barely talk to us unless we were interested in there
non-linear editing software. MAybe this is the reason that they have the
smallest clientel of the Big 4 or 5 SGI packages.<g>
Sooooooo………. 3D Studio is one hell of a program isn't it? Anyone looking
at visualization or animation should certainly give a good hard look at 3DS
regardless of their budget! The SIG'93 demo reel is nothing short of
spectacular and the worldwide expansion of the 3DS market is a true testament
to the phenomenal power that this package exhibits!
Paul "Die Hard 3DS Fan!"
No doubt. The more I'm exposed to the big SGI packages the more I like what I
spent my $3K on!!!!
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Bob:
Actually, we had Wavefront running on our Sun workstations, and tried 3D GIG,
also, but after experimenting for a while, found 3D Studio to be by far the
best bang for the buck, and also with R3 have the animation and rendering
capability of the expensive systems.
But it's nice to know that we had tried the other options, and are back here
because of choice, not lack of firsthand experience!
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] 16-Dec-93 at 10:51p PST
Greg and all who responded,
I have found your responses vital to giving me the resolve to push for what I
think is the best way to spend our money in a field where a bad choice on
software and hardware could seriously damage the firm in many ways. I think
that discussing other software is a good thing to do because it keeps Autodesk
responding to its customers, it keeps the forum hangers informed and gives this
forum an air of objectivity even though the forum is sponsored by a software
company. I am completely satisfied with the response to my original querry
and I hope that I didn't alienate anybody for bringing up the question.
Bob
Bob:
I don't see any problem, and there was no alienation with anybody here,
especially since you obviously came to the 'right' decision!
Let us know what the firm decides to do.
Greg Pyros [Pyros Partnership, Inc] gpyros@pyros.com 17-Dec-93 at 10:45p PST
Good luck, Bob. As you can see, you've got plenty of support here.
– G