#AMIGA Internat'l is in
6 messages in this thread
Alex
I don't claim any particular expertise but the idea that:
> if it isn't sufficiently compatible, it won't last.
is questionable in some ways. Every company's new products are usually
short of 100% backward compatibility and always have been short. We judge
the percieved benefits and either PC-Jr it or buy it and go on. Also
> supposedly 5 million Amigas floating around world wide
has to be an exaggeration at best and getting more so by the day. Most
of them were game consoles with floppy only access and EGA quality
displays to start with. That forced the level of Amiga software to
gravitate down to the level of the common denominator. Sad, and the
fault of CBM for only having the confidence to cater to the bottom
end. Damn all cowards to hell.
I don't think ayone will challange that the lowend amigas are being
stuck into closets and garage-saled at an ever increasing rate. After
this christmas they will vanish by legions when the gamers settle
into their Sega Genisis with the 32bit option newly grafted onto it,
etc. I think only the loaded 2000's, Toaster boxes, 4000's used in
production and other high end machines will survive even into 1995
and if no new buyer has an upward migration path opened up by summer
many of them won't survive 96. How many Amigas are there, and how
many will there be next xmas? Any programmer that suggested a new
Amiga project using up thousands of hours and thousands of dollars
right now would be fired for cause _before_ xmas.
I will suggest that even the production in 95 of stock 4000T units is
not enough, not close. Only an UPGRADE that offers something not
available on the klones will get even existing Amiga owners to buy
them, or programmers to write for them. If CEI or AUK don't build the
5000 and if it isn't able to offer compelling features at great
$$/performance they should invest their money in pork bellies
instead. I feel Jim Drew is correct to think the time is come to
either grab for the ring with a radically new approach that tries to
leapfrog the Amiga technology into the future, or forget it.
You have to risk your life once a week just to stay alive. Who said that?
alternate: jonest@hfsi.com
I never met a man I didn't like…Will Rogers
The compatibility issue was in regards to a clone of the Amiga, which would
mean essentially the same architecture. In which case a machine with no more
capability and limitied compatibility would probably find a very limited
reception.
On the other hand, a RISC based machine with speeds on the order of several
magnitudes, with built-in 24 bit display, and built in Video Toaster
capabilities, at a $2K price point, would progbably find a home in my hose even
if it broke every game in existance.
I agree that we need to jump start the Amiga technology, however I'm not sure
of the markets willingness to accept, nore developers willingness to support a
radically different machine with a zero intalled user base.
The machine would have to be lightyears ahead of what is currently
available, and the would have to be an unfulfilled need for it to
address.
When the 1000 came out, it was way ahead of the competition, but that wasn't
enough to ensure its long term survival.
Look how eagerly the media and developers intitially greeted the NeXT. IT was
supposed to be an advanced machine, and in many ways it was. Even so, it
wasn't enough to survive.
I don't know what it would take to crack the market with a new computer. I'm
not even sure that it can be done at all. Perhaps the next computer system
will evolve out of a killer game system. I fear the market is becoming much
like VCR's. VHS & Beta fought it out, till VHS (which was not the superior
system), won. 8mm video hangs in there by a thread, (video camcorders), you
rarely see a tabletop 8mm system, and even more rarely see an 8mm prerecorded
tape. In many ways 8mm is superior to VHS, but just can't crack the entrenched
market because peope already have a sizeable investment in VHS hardware, and
VHS does all that they _NEED_ to do. They might admire some of the bells and
whistles of the 8mm, but they will wait till the features they really desire
migrate to their platform.
Thus the Dos box users admire some of our capabilities, but they have
[ MORE ]
Speculation on the future of PC's and the Amiga are addictive aren't they?
Since most of us here make our living by guessing the direction this will
take it is not surprising we are so interested in it.
I'm glad we agree that the current Amiga technology is already bypassed
and only something that leapfrogs it back into tomorrow will suffice to
put Amiga back on the map. I firmly believe that. One way would be to ship
it with a RISC processor 100X faster than the current model but able to
run most of the current software to protect the Video production base
already in place. Replacing most or all of the custom chips with a 2nd
risc processor, if necessary, would make it more economical perhaps and
easier to jump to the next level. Picture a scenario where the existing
base of A5000's are "flashrom'd" with the next "chipset" to enable them to
run the newest operating system without swapping motherboards etc etc.
Then I would suggest a super version of Mosaic be part of the operating
system and that the new buyer ape Bill Gates by providing his own free (or
at least very cheap) access to the internet for every Amiga (through deals
with some of the existing providers now selling MCI accesses nation-wide).
The 486's and even Pentiums can't seem to deliver Mosaic style access
without slowing down to what feels like 300 baud. I would sell the new
Amiga as a multimedia door to the internet with every bell and whistle and
I would sell it to business as well as to consumers. Since it would ship
with integrated 24 bit video graphics and 28,800 baud modem and ethernet
connection (using the ASP simulation), why not?
The ad-man's perception of the joe-blow average home computer buyer runs
like this:
1. Mostly men who slobber over futuristic projections of things to come in
Popular Mechanics while sitting on the throne.
2. Even though he can spend hours quoting jargon about PC technology
learned from PC and Byte, he in fact owns or will own the cheapest
imported klone machine money can buy. He thinks knowing what a PIF file
does makes him a hero in the office and women love him for it. (Sadly, he
is not entirely wrong.)
3. This Walter Mitty can be confidently expected to continue to live in a
dream world where PC-brained robots bring him his beer during the game,
while impatiently skulking through the back pages waiting for the day some
third world pirate manufacturer "sort of" copys the dream machine he wants
at a price more appropriate to his toys-for-boys budget.
For the mainstream common denominator, this sad individual is an
exaggeration of the market klone manufacturers must deal with. I don't
believe the Amiga ever has or ever will comptete in that kind of market.
It appeals to people who want much much more and they want it RIGHT NOW.
If the new owners don't realize that they should not get into this. On the
other hand Amiga people are willing, in my opinion, to pay for a really
price-worthy product and have always paid more than the klone buyer for
superior performance and superior access to the future.
> On the other hand, a RISC based machine with speeds on the order of
> several magnitudes, with built-in 24 bit display, and built in Video
> Toaster capabilities, at a $2K price point, would progbably find a home
> my house even if it broke every game in existance.
I rest my case, and I believe that if it included some of the features I
envision you might quickly if reluctantly agree to pay much more than $2K.
I feel strongly that Amiga people don't want to dream about the future,
they want to own it and use it. The greatest frustration was that
Commodore was the C64 maker, the ultimate mass market machine, and never
could seem to realize they were now selling to a pretty elite clientele
who were more interested in a class act with value than price. The screams
were mostly at the penny pinching cheapening of the 4000, the lack of
expected premium features, not the cost. That was why it didn't sell.
alternate: jonest@hfsi.com
I never met a man I didn't like…Will Rogers
[ continuation ]
faith that some day Mr. Bill and Intel will provide a reasonable imitation.
So they will wait for that day, rather than buy the new machine.
– Alex… Celebrating 10 years on Compuserve
PMFJI here, but:
> On the other hand, a RISC based machine with speeds on the order of
> several magnitudes, with built-in 24 bit display, and built in Video
> Toaster capabilities, at a $2K price point,
Yeah, this is the kind of thinking that doomed the Amiga to be a
"low-end games machine". What's wrong with the type of Amiga you
suggest, but at a $6-8K price point? (Ask NewTek how easy it would
be to build a Toaster for $2000.) After all, decent 24-bit graphics
(especially for animation use) would require something like 16M of
Chip RAM; and of course a 64-bit RISC processor requires all-64-bit
instructions, so you can figure another 16-64M of Fast RAM if you
intend to do any multitasking; and getting any performance out of
_that_ huge a memory would require 30- or 40-ns RAM chips; tack a
4-9G SCSI-2 hdd on, and tell me how you're going to do all this for
$2000.
If you REALLY want a "next-generation Amiga" of the type you describe,
go buy an SGI Indy. It won't be compatible with any of your current Amiga
stuff, but then….
"A 'Creative Amiga'? Hell, we ALL knew that…."
Mr. C
> Mr. Bill and Intel will provide a reasonable ??
> imitation. So they will wait for that day, rather than buy the new
> machine.
The sad truth is Mr. Bill is like his market of klone buyers and will
never deliver on his promises as long as the money is in mediocrity.
The proof is that he and IBM and Intel let them suffer MsDos's 640K
firewall in a machine capable of VM and MT ever since at least the
286, because they didn't want risk even one cent. As long as they are
willing to wait they will wait. and wait. and wait. And pay.
Not that he is wrong about his market; when IBM finally tried to give
them OS/2 to correct the mistakes of a decade the clone users were
unable to break away from their antiquated applications and afraid of
losing their status as office guru's if PIF files and the magic
ability to create "extra conventional memory" failed to wow anyone
anymore. Born losers.
alternate: jonest@hfsi.com
I never met a man I didn't like…Will Rogers