#Export to VCR?
35 messages in this thread
How can you connect VCR to computer to export rendered frames to it?
Andrey Zmievskiy
With lots of money. FIrst you need a frame accurate recorder. Beta
format is the best, but there is a cheap Sanyo on the market that is
supposed to work. tou then need either hardwade or software to
communicate with the program/computer/VCR. I use a VLAN system, it
controls any industrial deck and is available in animation only
configurations. I never used it but Diaquest and SoftVCR are a few
other possiblities.
Tom
Aptos Multimedia Productions
<With lots of money.>
Tom,
Please elaborate.
How much?
Chris
Well, where do I begin…
I guess first you need an encoder, a controllable VCR and some way to control
the VCR's actions.
Encoder:
There are many varieties of encoders on the market, the cheaper they are the
worse they are. You have to pay good mony in order to get accurate color for
the NTSC signal. I use a Magni VGA Pro. The good encoders cost about $1,500.00.
VCR's:
I think the New Sanyo has an RS232 interface. It's a SVHS model, but it's not
an industrial grade, meaning there will most likely be some signal degradation
on copies. I think they cost in the mid$3,000.00 range. The best you can do is
a BetaCam deck. I just acquired a new UVW1800. These guys run about $8,000.00.
The PVW2600 which is the one most broadcasters use cost in excess of
$15,000.00. The UVW is not as fancy as the high end PVW but the quality is
almost the same. (Only about 2db differance) The UVW has few knobs, no
Jog/Shuttle, but an edit controller fixes this. Industrial SVHS machines like
the JVC BR-S822U run about $6,000.00. These are good machines and give
excellent results.
Edit Controller:
There are also several ways to control frame accurate VCR's I use Videomedia's
VLAN system. It's the industry standard. A system with a single transciever
costs about $1,500.00.
There are several other things that may also be needed, TBC's Sync
generators…Switchers….. The list can go on.
Hope this helps, let me know if I can clarify..
Tom
That's if you wan frame accurate results using a frame buffer such as
a Targa board. You can use any VCR with the encoder and an adept
touch with the pause button. But as I mentioned, the quality of non
industrial deck is really poor. Trust me I have been there and tried
it.
>>>FIrst you need a frame accurate recorder.<<<
I hope you take a lot of heat for spewing forth such inaccuracies!
I'm not the expert here but you can record high quality animations to a VCR
without going frame accurate. One method that is brand new for the PC is the
DPS PAR system for less than $4,000 including a dedicated hard drive, a TBC
board and the board itself. I think the original question only asked how to
get rendered frames to be recorded by a VCR:
>>>>#: 82635 S3/Autodesk 3D Studio
09-Feb-94 17:23:43 Sb: Export to VCR? Fm: Andrey Zmievskiy 73021,66 To:
All
How can you connect VCR to computer to export rendered frames to it?
Andrey Zmievskiy<<<
For less than $1000 (sometimes much less) you can just get a scan converter to
record flics realtime off your computer. I know Cardinal's Snap Plus will do
the trick here for less than $800 and there are plenty of other scan converters
for less than that. You can spend the bucks to go frame accurate but for some
this is unnecessary. The trend in computer animation seems to be away from
frame accurate recording altogether. Andrey, if you're out there, stay tuned
there are many ways to get your rendered frames to tape.
Ok, I am tuned to your discussion now. What is the cheapest possible way to
record your flics to VCR?
Can you connect VCR to video boards like Video Blaster and stuff like that?
Andrey Zmievskiy
Andrey,
>> Ok, I am tuned to your discussion now. What is the cheapest possible way to
record your flics to VCR? <<
you can get a vga to ntsc converter for less than $200 now. The quality is OK
for reviews and such. The s-video (svhs/hi-8) output is nicer.
>>you can get a vga to ntsc converter for less than $200 now. The
>>quality is OK for reviews and such. The s-video (svhs/hi-8) output is nicer.
Nicer??? An S-VHS system will give 30 fps, true color, high res
animation. For first generation, I doubt that there's much visible
difference from Beta… (I've rendered to beta before via service
bureaus). Flics are very unsatisfying, IMO… 256 colors, shifting
time, and 320×200 for any kind of length. I'm surprised how lowly the
Sanyo deck is regarded here. I've put at least 10,000 frames down
with it by now without a drop. The specs for the unit are
outstanding. And my VHS dubs are excellent. If the PAR had been out
last fall (for PC), I might have considered it. But for about $4,000,
I got a T+ and the sanyo, and I've been making some very salable
product with them.
Jim,
>> Nicer??? An S-VHS system will give 30 fps, true color, high res animation.
<<
Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant the vga/ntsc converters often have an
s-video output which looks quite a bit nicer than the RCA composite output. I
wasn't talking about frame-by-frame output.
My recommendation for anyone coming into the biz now and with $4k to spend
would be a PAR. Productivity would be far higher than with any frame-by-frame
system. I saw one again at Greg Pyros' shop and was (once again) blown away.
The video capture was fantastic and the animation output very fine. I can't see
clients complaining output of this quality – at least not mine, who were often
impressed by flics to tape.
Can I play s-vhs on regular VCR?
Andrey Zmievskiy
No, Jim, you cannot (if by regular VCR you mean VHS). SVHS is a completely
different video format and most (if not all) consumer VHS decks are not able to
play back SVHS tapes. Many SVHS decks, however *can* play back (and record) in
the VHS format.
-Alan Iglesias
No, Not unless it is one of the so called Quasi-SVHS players. There are a few
of them around. They play SVHS in a VHS format. Note, I said play, not record.
Tom
I don't agree that you won't see much difference in the Beta format. I have the
new UVW1800 and my JVC or Hi-8 decks (BR-S622U, BR-S822U & EVO9850) dont even
come close to the same quality. I know the Sanyo spec's and they are not as
good as the industrial decks that I use. The output I use is also from the
Targa+ 64.
Tom
Andrey,
I suspected that you were not looking to spend the thousands of dollars to go
to a frame accurate solution. Martin Foster is right about the cost and
availability of scan converters. One thing to be careful of: video boards
like the Diamond Viper may not have the feature connector required to hook up
to some of the scan converter boards like the Video Blaster, Video Spigot and
others. Check them out real carefully for connectivity.
Best of luck,
Bob
First you must define what quality you want. Low cost low quality stuff can be
had for less than $1,000.00. If you want quality then you must pay. I use the
Magni VGA producer Pro ($1,500.00) and BetaCam or Industrial SVHS decks.
Tom
Ok, I'll rephrase my question. What is the cheapest equipment for outputting to
VCR frame-by-frame?
Andrey Zmievskiy
Probably the Sanyo SVHS GVR-S950, Andrey.
It's got it's own controller and is basically ready to go. Just add a frame
buffer and 3DS. Don't know much about just how well it works, though. Maybe
someone else here can help with that.
Contact Sanyo at 310/605/6527.
-Alan Iglesias
Your best bet for the cheapest frame accurate with SMPTE is the Sanyo GVR-S950
with a software only controller. I think the Sanyo is about $3000.00, Check B&H
for their prices. There are a bunch of encoders for VGA to video, I wouldn't
buy anything without looking at it and maybe puttin a scope on it for NTSC
compliance. This would cost $400.00 and up.
If you have the encoder, you can then record on any VCR that has flying erase
heads. You just have to be agile with the pause button.
Tom
Note on my Last message… Alan says the Sanyo has a controller so that's a
plus since you don't need to buy one.
Tom
Andrey,
VideoBlaster wll not work for OUTPUT to tape. It is an INPUT only
device. It has four input cables, all composite. The Cardinal
SnapPlus will output to tape but anything much larger than a standard
FLI (320×200) will not run very smooth unless you have a very fast
computer, and or lots of ram for a ramdisk. It does however have
S.Video I/O as well as composite and captures realtime to ram from
any video source. A nice board for the money, but if you are looking
to do full screen animation to video tape I do not recommend the
board.
Merlin G. Farmer
Crystal Cave Animagix
Well, I guess I was thinking the guy wanted quality. I has seen used
and thrown out many of the cheapo ways to get animations on tape. If
you are doing any kind of professional level work then the only way
to go is frame accurate and with a frame buffer. When the hardware
versions of stuff works, I'l be the first to reccomend and use.
Besides If you want to edit a video and add animation insersts or
overlays, you need frame accurate.
Thanks for the rebuttal
Tom
A lot of the folks that hang out here are poor as dirt like me. I,
like many others, am in this near poverty state by chosing early on
the alleged lofty profession of architecture. I assume first that
anybody asking questions of going to tape want to know the cheapest
way to do it as well as the best way. Still think you might check
out systems like the Matrox Max, the DPS PAR, and the Exabyte/Abekas
route. None of these methods require one to own frame accurate
recording equipment and the quality has been raved about here.
Editing in-house may pose some difficulties, I'll agree, but you'd be
doing your wallet a favor by checking the quality one can achieve
without going to a frame accurate solution. Check out the threads
with Don L., Greg P. and the Murph' talking about the varied
non-frame accurate solutions.
I did not mean to cause such an uproar form some forum members. I have
a small Production studio that I outfitted in order to control the
quality of my product. I do agree that there are cheaper ways to get
VGA graphics to tape, that's how I got started. I have just been
through the expeience and have my own personal knowlege base on the
problems of developing a true braodcast quality desktop video
solution. I even wrote an article for "TV Technology" on the subject.
I make industial and commercial videos for my area. All of my local
broadcast stations require at a minnimum BetaCam format for delivery.
In the development of a TV commercial that uses either 2D or 3D
computer images, it is a requirement that I combine video and
animation/still, either by means of a keyed overlay of by an A/B roll
edit. There is no other consistant way to get accurate results unless
you have all material sync'd, TBC'd, and working from SMPTE TC.
I started out small, with very cheap equipment and poor quality
results. Now I'm still small, have very expensive equipment, but I
now have pristine results. Maybe if I knew how much money I was going
to spend when I bought the first animator 320×240 product, I would
have never decided to take the plunge.
So in order to not disillusion some of the newer users I should keep quiet….
Thanks for the reply…
Tom
Thomas, I'm think I might have missed the uproar except the part about
you need a single frame recorder to do animations, and I concur with
Robert on that. The rest of it you seem to address fairly accurately.
The DPS PAR solution that Robert mentioned does output to BetaSP,
(you mentioned Betacam which is a misnomer at is relates to Beta
Video Cameras). As far as disillusioning newer users, there are many
uses for animation, one of which is Broadcast which is probably not
the best environment for a new user to get into anyway. And like
Martin I would suggest getting into Video games for them. But I
certainly wouldn't be put off by being jumped on, happens here all
the time. Got to have a thick skin and be sure of what you're saying
so that you can back it up. You never know when you're going to
Zinged from left field. We've had some really good heated debates
here as a result. So put on the armor and put it out here. And don't
be afraid of disillusioning anyone, we're big boys and girls here,
and if we're not we ought to be. In all modesty I know a fair amount
but I'm always learning more. I may not always agree but I sure like
the diversity of opinion and fact, most of which is a different
perspective on the same thing. Just keep an eye on Robert as he
keeps an eye on you, its good for growth and keeps you on your toes.
My mentor of sorts is Don Landis and vice versa I think. Every now
and then we get into some doozies. But it certainly makes life
interesting around here and from the feedback we get most people end
up learning quite a bit. Its really good having a mentor around who
takes what he's doing as seriously at you do.
Don just acquired the DPS PAR, and we've had some really intense
dialog on the subject. It will be very interesting to hear his
thoughts on the subject after all that has been said and speculated
on. He's another forumite you will be interested to follow as he also
does production work and will be using the DPS PAR quite
extensively. He may yet convince me to get one. <g> But even if he
his comments don't convince me I'll certainly respect his decision to
have acquired one. FWIW <g>
John,
Thanks for your thoughts, I am not thin skinned… Just dont like
getting people all worked up over subjects that are often subjective.
(My wife can't tell the difference between regular VHS and Laser
disk….)
Oh, yeah I know its technicaly BetaSP… but all of the Goofs at the stations
in my area call it "BetaCam" and it's a very bad habit that has rubbed off on
me.
I got into the forum because I wanted to tell the guys at ADESK that their
usage of Type 1 fonts was abysmal…. Then I got into a discussion and here we
are…..
I'm having fun…. Spent more time here in the last couple of days than I did
doing real work……
Thanks…
Tom
Tom
>> I'm having fun… Spent more time here in the last couple of days than I did
doing real work… <<
Glad to hear it! And that can happen… <G>
John:
Thanks for jumping in, you're a great mediator. <g> My response to Thomas was
a devil's advocate role inspired by Murph' the (Quick)Surf. Looks like Andrey
was after a frame accurate solution all along so I'll drop out of this
discussion.
Bob
Well you both seem like very interested people, and sometimes I've
noticed in this medium intentions get misconstrued. Hate to see good
people disappear because of an unintended misunderstanding. And I
really like seeing people like you and Tom trying to help out; its
what a lot of us feel this place is all about.
>> inspired by Murph' the (Quick)Surf. <<
Jeez….pick up a couple of loose gems and nobody forgets. <g>
Murph'
>> In all modesty I know a fair amount but I'm always learning more<<
Comon' John…You know it all. <BG>
Murph'
Murph,
>> Comon' John… You know it all. <BG> <<
I wish I did! 🙂
-JE
>> But I certainly wouldn't be put off by being jumped on, happens here
>> all the time.
DOES NOT! <g>
>> DOES NOT! <g> <<
DOES TOO! <BG>
-JE
<< << does not! >> >>
<< does too!! >>
🙂
There's that smiley face again, or is that the footprints of Kilroy? <g>
-JE