#Toaster Software failure
30 messages in this thread
We have a NewTek Toaster 4000 i our Amiga 4000. Is there any reason that the
18 and 43 disk come up with error messages? We've tried about 5 times to
install the software and it keeps giving errors? (The error is a software
failure). What are we doing wrong?
Thanks in advance for any help!
Sincerely, Frank Kachurak
You probably are not doing anything wrong. My Toaster 4000 disk #4 was bad. I
called Newtek and they sent me a new disk and everything was okay.
Unfortunately, Newtek does not have a Quality Control/Quality Assurance plan in
place to minimize the possibility of bad disks. This is particularly
frustrating due to the fact that the loading procedure must be started all over
again if a bad disk is encountered.
My error happened on the fourth disk, but it must be frustrating as hell when
it happens on the 43rd disk and you have to start all over again. A quick fix
is to go to your local dealer and have them copy new disks for you or to
directly download the software from their hard drive to yours.
Good luck.
Adib
Adib,
Unfortunatelay, the only way that NewTek would have to assure that all the
disks work before sending them out is to try to install them. This is
neither practical or feasible.
Here's hoping for CD-Rom in the future!
JG
John:
My software company (EDSA Micro) makes Electrical and Power System Analysis
software which is used in safety related applications such as the design of
nuclear power plants, submarines, aircraft, space station freedom…etc.
We have a QA/QC program in effect and our duplication hardware uses a digital
image copying method which not only copies the data but also verfies the
integrity of the disk, the data recorded, and rejects any that are corrupt. We
do not ship any bad disks.
Just to put things in percpective, we have over 6,000 users and a typical
program package contains anywhere between 62-74 3.5" high density disks or one
full CD-ROM. Therefore, we should not have to wait for CD-ROM since the
technology is already available to software developers.
Although we have to take such measures to assure top software quality due to
certain government requirements and the nature of its use, I can see no reason
why Newtek could not purchase the same hardware, or request to have their
outhouse duplication center adhere to a reasonable qualtiy control and
assurance guideline. Even my dealer had bad disks!
By the way, I hope you have a great time in Aruba. I would go, but I probably
wouldn't attend one class since it blows 20-30 knots every day. To a
windsurfer, these conditions cannot be ignored – how about night classes? dark
conditions are best for viewing video anyway.
Adib
Good Points.
BTW, virtually any disk duplicating machine offers a verify option for
copying disks, so that shouldn't be too `costly'. (Far cheaper than
replacing the bad ones once they're in the hands of the user!)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
I completely agree. I can find no excuse for the number of bad
Toaster disks that have been shipped. The average cost of mailing
ONE disk in the United States not including any labor on the senders
part is close to $2.50 (30 cents for the disk, 2 cents for lables, 40
cents for packaging, and $1.44 for postage and other actual costs).
Count in the number of phone calls your Tech Support has to handle
(rather than concentrating on real problems) and the 1-800 charges
incurred for each call, frustrated customers…etc., I fail to see
the logic in what Newtek is doing.
As you mention, the cost for verfying disk information is
inconsequential, particularly with high volume duplication. Even if
the cost was a few cents more for each disk, I believe that they
would actually save money. I know it is an over used phrase, but it
is never wise to be penny smart and pound foolish.
What percentage of bad disks get through your process? I don't see
that anyone can offer 100% accuracy even with verification,
especially when you consider that the disks have to be wrapped and
shipped, then used in a customer's machine with imprecise drive
alignment. With ~50 disks in a set, even 0.5% unreadable disks means
that 1 in 4 users will be unable to install the first time. What
NewTek needs to do to ensure that things work is to ship 2 identical
sets of disks, since the odds of the same disk being bad are like .25
* .005. Of course the real answer is that the software is too big to
be distributed on floppy. Has anyone ever heard of even a 30 floppy
install? Maybe if people sold UNIX on floppy …
We have a very controled duplication procedure and have almost no bad
disks (less than 1%) shipped. The duplicators and controlers we use
take a digital "picture" of the master disk and then copy and verify
the integrity of the data on each disk. Bad disks are automatically
rejected by the duplicator and are thrown out or used for internal
use (putting our own personal junk on them – since the disks are
still useable and are most likely rejected because of a minor flaw).
On top of that, we have a system that randomly checks disks by
actually loading them which makes sure that all the files load
properly. Moreover, our loading procedure allows you to continue
with the installation procedure even if a bad disk is detected (thus
not aborting a 45 minute install at disk #40).
I don't know if shipping two sets of identical disks is the best way
around this as it could cause licensing problems (the release of
Light Rave has shed light on this issue recently), not to mention the
added costs. All of this could be avoided through proper product
release planning and control over the duplication process.
My feeling is that Newtek is so anxious to get a new product
immediately on the market in enough quantity that they are putting
great demands on their duplication house (we need 10,000 disks
tomorrow scenarios), which is forcing them to compromise quality and
meet the required quantity.
But the product is so good that I think people will put up with bad
disks. It's kind of like the Italian car syndrome. They look great,
perform great , but once in a while they can be a real pain in the
neck.
As I illustrated, even "less than 1%" is too many failures with a 50
disk distribution. As for the software allowing partial
installation, I think that is great, but that is not the way NewTek
did it.
What modern technological industry accepts a one percent failure rate?
US integrated circuit manufacturers had AQLs around that level in the
mid 1970's, until the Japanese vendors entered the market with ten
times better quality levels. AQLs for ICs are now in the
parts-per-million level.
US car manufacturers had a similar lackadaisical attitude towards
quality until Japanese companies starting eating their metaphorical
lunch. Now, according to "Consumer Reports," US cars are about as
good as Japanese cars were ten years ago. Meanwhile, the Japanese
companies have improved their product by about a factor of ten.
One percent bad floppies? If I were running a duplicator house, I would
(a) Shoot my floppy supplier
(b) Shoot my duplicator supplier
(c) Flee to some country without U.S. extradition. (Shooting people is
considered in poor taste in much of the USA, unless said person has
done something really annoying, like driving slow in the fast lane.)
And we aren't even talking 1.4 MB or 2.8 MB floppies; just old, 720 kB
discs. This isn't rocket science. (It isn't science and it doesn't
involve rockets. QED.)
On the other hand, as I mentioned in a previous note, Newtek is being
very nice and offering to load the software directly onto my hard
disk, so I can't complain too much. It's inconvenient, but it's not
like Fred Phelps is going to show up on my doorstep.
The 1% failure rate was a guestimate as I am not directly involved in
the duplication process – I am in marketing. I am sure the number is
fall smaller – how small I really don't know.
Pish tosh and twaddle. I worked at Daisy Systems in the early 1980s and our
disk duplicators would duplicate each disk and then read it back, to make sure
the data actually made it on the disk. We had a problem, once, with a bad
disk: it was because the customer attached the disk to the side of his filing
cabinet with a bar magnet. We had him shot, of course, but we waited until his
company paid for the needless service call.
Why am I annoyed? It's because I spent two hours last night trying to install
the Toaster software, with a useless error message popping up each time at disk
#9. The error message was "An error occurred." Oh, how very helpful. Thank
you so much. Grrrr.
(On the other hand, the SunRize AD-516, though advertised with version 3.0
software, actually comes with version 2.x; you don't get 3.0 until you
register. The 2.x software has a lovely error message, telling you that due to
"cpu overload", it is "stoping" playback on an unnamed channel. Is it just me,
or is the entire country forgetting how to spel wurds and use properly
grammatical?)
— David "Sweetness and Light" Schachter
<< is the entire country forgetting how to spel wurds and use
properly grammatical?) >>
I know I am. A client called last night to tell me that I'd
misspelled (sp?) a word on a graphic on his tape. I wonder where my
spelling ability went; I _never_ made less than 100 on a spelling
test. What happened?
You're watching too much Rush…..:^)
<< You're watching too much Rush…..:^) >>
Maybe so; but what did I say? I can't even remember what kind of
note I put up in this thread… Obviously confused,
It was something about 'missing the obvious'. You were apologizing
for some appearantly mush-brained behaviour (of which we are all
guilty :^) I was trying to give you a good excuse for it. <G>
Now I remember… I'd misspelled (sp?) a word on a roll page on a
client's tape… Mind probably got a little dull from missing 2 or 3
days of Rush! <g> Still Toastin!
"I can't remember what kind of note I put up in this thread" That's
the problem with being a Dittohead. <ducking & running>
So, did you hear the quote from the guy they just arrested for
threatening the pres? He's "just a harmless little
fuzzball."….Wonder where he heard that. :^)
Blaq!, Aren't you the witty one…. <g>
I missed two words in spelling tests during grade/high school, and I'll never
get over it. "Indian" in third grade, I dropped the first 'n' through sheer
carelessness; then "parallel" in ninth, again dropping one of the middle 'l'.
John,
I'm amazed at just how badly my spelling has deteriorated over the past 4-5
yeers… <g>
Jerry
John,
I saw an announcement of a new Syquest 270 MB 3.5" drive, MSRP about $800
with one disks. Disk MSRP are $80. Access time is listed at 14.5ms.
S'psed to ship this month. There might be n ice symbiotic relation
between Syquest and NewTek to sell upgrad packages with drives an media
next time out….
wmc – via Autopilot!
I'm told that these 270 Syquests are already available through
MacWarehouse – about $600 without a cartridge; about $650 with one.
I don't recall the real prices, but it was being discussed on
AmigaUser a few weeks ago. Someone said that the drives will also
read and write 105M cartridges, which can often be bought for $50 or
so.
Well, if the 270 carts go for around $60 street (as the article
indicated they might in a few months) and MO 128s are $28 – $34, I'd
say MO's days are numbered (if Syquests have the same longevity and
error ratings as MO). The article listed reads at 1/3 that of MO and
writes at 1/8 of MO. Pretty impressive at that price.
I'm rather eager for them to be available at good prices. Have been
tempted to call MacWarehouse.
I think you mean "seaquest" don't you? <g>
probably – did ny typelexia kick in again?
wmc – via Autopilot!
Dyslexics of the world untie! 🙂