#SIGGRAPH video question.
35 messages in this thread
Question for all who've seen the SIGGRAPH video for 3D Studio
Release 3 (from last year).. How did the guys at "Fast Forward"
achieve the really nice lettering-reflection effect in the animation
where the word "Star" comes out of the page?.. Auto-flat reflection
map? Animated reflection map or what? Sure would like to know about
that one..
I'm not sure, but I think this may have been the old
use-a-basic-reflection-map,-link-*everything*-to-a-dummy-and-move/revo
lve -the-dummy trick <g>. Gary clued me in on this some time ago, and
I have used it since with great results. Since the camera moves with
the objects and lights, the animation looks like nothing more is
moving, but the reflection sure does! Great for getting those
reflections-through-everything look quickly and easily…
That's the trick, Alan. Thanks for uploading it.
– G
Thanks for the reply Alan. sounds interesting .. I'll give it a shot.
Are the reflection maps you're talking about auto-ref maps or just plain ol'
reflection maps?
— Steve
Just plain 'ol ones, Steve. That's part of the beauty…
-Alan
First thing taught in flying logos 101!
GT
Hmmmm…I was sorta assuming the big-boys' just let you move the spherical
RefMap around the environment…
-Alan
Actually, we just spin everything but the lights and refmaps.
Refmaps would use world coordinates. Hey, I was wondering, a friend
of mine at work who has R3 and let me play around with it today said
that 3ds has a layered fog. What is layered fog? Is it the same as
backdrop fog? If not, how can I create the effect of backdrop in
3ds? I'm trying to recreate one of our seaQuest scenes using 3ds,
but can't get the fog to work properly. Basically what I need is a
gradient backround fog. In LightWave, we would set a gradient
backround, and turn on backdrop fog. Backdrop fog assumes the
backround colors, even a bitmap. Can I do this in 3ds? If not, can
you suggest a cheat?
<< backdrop fog..wish >>
I'm taking that as a wishlist item.
Another wishlist item:
In addition to Greg's excellent suggestion for a visible grid-plane
in viewports, I would love the ability to move control
points/vertices/objects along a constrained, orthagonal axis. For
instance: I choose to move along the Y axis, then rotate the viewport
to a nice perspecive (actually orthagonal, but you know what I mean)
and I would be able to move all objects, etc… along the chosen Y
axis. This would help me to see where I'm putting stuff in relation
to other objects, vertices.
John,
<< visible grids and contraining…>>
got it.
jonas[adesk]
If you mean a fogged gradient background, 3DS can do it. Just turn on
Fog and make sure the Fog Background button and it'll apply the fog
to the background colors (even a bitmap).
Actually Gary, what I mean is the ability for the fog to assume the
colors of the backround. For instance, when we set up our scenes in
LightWave, we create a gradient backround, and turn on Backdrop Fog.
The fog then assumes it's colors. The advantage of this is that our
subs appear to disappear into the water. It's a feature that as far
as I know is unique to LightWave, as it was something that we asked
for specifically from Allen Hastings. I'd love to see it in your
package. Another nice thing would be to have your gradient backround
be based on a sort of world coordinate. In other words, suppose you
have a gradient that goes from light at the top to dark at the
bottom. Make it so that the when the camers looks up, the gradient
is light, and when it looks down, it goes dark. Add fog that assumes
those colors and doing underwater scenes becomes very simple.
Wow. Great fog suggestions. I hope we see those in R4!
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Re a camera-sensitive gradient… it would be simple to implement that
as an IPAS .IXP — very similar to the way stars.ixp works. Re the
fog that _takes on_ the colors of the background… interesting idea
(and quite easy to implement, but not as an ipas routine,
unfortunately).
Not as an IPAS? That's ok, I would rather it be a part of the main
interface anyway.
One whish again:
Don`t implement our whishes in thousends of IPAS routines. Don`t get
me wrong, the ability of 3DS to plug in external programs is really
great. But I don`t want to handle hundred (or more) IPAS from hundred
(or more) different companies. That means hundred (or more 🙂 )
different kinds of usability. A user-interface API doesn`t mean that
every programmer makes his interface in the same way like other
programmer.
BTW, I think it`s not very good to buy a 3D-Programm for about 3000
US$ and pay 2000 US$ to buy the features that you really need.
I think the most needed features should be part of 3DS. Exotic
features like converting a image in a child-paint style should be
available as a IPAS.
Though 3D Studio has more and more features every release, I don't
think it's feasible to deluge it with features not everyone will use.
The "most" needed features you believe should be included may not be
the same I think are the most needed. I would prefer to have the core
engineers concentrating in getting the best possible program. One of
3D Studio's greatest features is its openness. Almost any featured
not present can be later implemented and added to accommodate one's
need. Otherwise we will end up with something in the order of
Microsoft Word for Windows. There are 200 engineers working in that
group. What used to be a simple "word processor" became a behemoth 30
megabyte application so full of features I get lost trying to type
the simplest memo.
>> BTW, I think it`s not very good to buy a 3D-Programm for about 3000
>> US$ and pay 2000 US$ to buy the features that you really need.
Why do you say that? Would you prefer paying $5,000 for it when what
you really needed was an extra $300 IPAS? This is just like when you
buy a car. The "retail" price of the car is, say, $38k. By the time
they figure air conditioning, stereo, wheels, etc., we're talking
over $50k.
Right. — same thing we do regarding the refmaps.
Layered fog is fixed to world coordinates. It is not dependent on
camera placement or ranges like the standard fog. It's like a fixed
"slab" (JackP's term) of fixed fog that you can give a thickness and
an altitude too. You can also specify the color and direction of
density fall-off, from top to bottom.
My underwater sub animation done for a SD game company last year had
the sub "appearing" out of the backround/water using standard fog.
Although it was a quite simple animation (not quite what you guys are
doing up at Amblin for SQ), it was pretty effective.
I like the idea of the "slab" of fog. We could use it now in fact.
Sounds like it's a volumetric type of fog, similar to that found in
Alias. Say I got something else for the wishlist here:
How about visable light cones from spots? Right now, we both have to
have geometry with gradient transparencey maps to achieve the
effect. Would be nice if spots could could cast a visible light cone
like a searchlight. The only other desktop app that I know of that
does this is Electric Image on the Mac- at $8000. I might add!
Greg,
<< .. light wish ..>>
got it.
jonas[adesk]
Just curious Alan- who are the "big boys"?
He-he…anyone who's software/hardware is installed by guys who come
into your office wearing suits and giving off a
Of-course-this-is-the-best-money-can-buy-just-look-at-your-invoice
attitude!<g>
Seriously, I'm just alluding to the "workstation" level higher-priced
stuff like Alias, Wavefront, TDI, Softimage, et al. I've never sat
down for too long at any of these systems, so I just wonder sometimes
if certain things are more automatic with them…
I'll let you know! This coming Monday, SGI is going to loan us an
Indy and a Indigo2 Extreme. We'll have it for about a month with all
the software to go with it. There is a package called Matador by
Parallax that does some phenominal compositing in real time that I'm
just dying to check out.
The new Alias Power Animator looks pretty impressive, and TDI has a
dynamics module that does some really interesting stuff.
Of course this is all just to try and impress us, as all of our stuff
is still desktop based, but it gives us good ideas for our primary
software package!
>> This coming Monday, SGI is going to loan us an Indy and a Indigo2
Extreme.<<
funny you should say that. I'm the lead-artist on a 9-month contract
for a game developer in the LAX area. The big-name parent game
company supplied us with some PC's with 3d Studio and a couple of
loaded Indy's with Softimage. One of the artist's is an Alias freak
and he is using Softimage, although he prefers Alias. Myself and a
junior artist tried Softimage for a week and picked up plenty of
wishlist items, and then promptly returned to using 3d Studio.
Meanwhile one of the Indy's stands idle ….. I really must use
Softimage more though because it would be a useful job skill.
That's exactly what I do with LightWave! I find neat features in the
high-end stuff and then ask for it in LightWave. Since we have a
strategic relationship with NewTek, we usally get what we ask for.
I've also been putting some of those thoughts here on the ADESK forum
too.
>> I've also been putting some of those thoughts here on the ADESK
forum too <<
It's really good to have your thoughts. Adesk is listening and will
put them in the wishlist. I've been appending to a large wishlist
almost every week and will upload it close to the April 1st(?)
deadline.
The "big boys" are trying terribly hard to get their feet in the door
with the big game developers. They're practically giving the software
away because few can justify the retail price. Wavefront and Alias
are trying very hard in particular. Did you know that one of the
largest (if not the largest) video game companies (which shall remain
nameless, but is a household name) probably has the most Softimage
licenses? The actual developers would simply not be able to afford
it, though. They mostly use 3ds for 3d work.
Hey, sounds like you've got some great toys coming! Funny, but it's
not suprising…those SGI-oriented folks will go to great lengths to
prove that their's is the *only* answer to your needs. More and more
folks these days are saying "yeah, nice stuff, but my desktop system
does everything I really need for a 10th of the price, so, see ya
when you are more affordable". What do you think you guys will do?
I think that we will probably end up getting a couple of machines
running Alias and Parallax. There really is no good desktop
compositing software- or at least nothing that can do anything real
time-, that I know of. We've tried all the Amiga software that I
care to, and although there is some neat stuff out there, it can't
compete with high-end stuff.
3D is another matter though. We wil not scrap our desktop software.
The only thing I want to scrap is the Amigas; they are too slow and
not designed for professional use. That's why we need so many of
them. I sincerley hope that we get a standalone version of our
software that will run on the PPC.
I'd say that that we will only get more Alias seats when the price of
it comes down closer to what we pay for our current 3D package- which
is nothing! After that, the price of SGIs to run it all will have to
drop as well. That's how I see it. Your right about the big boys
trying to get into out facility though. They want in in a BIG way.
Their attitude towards our facility is one of quite amusement. I
think though that they are truley impressed however with what we've
managed to accomplish with our desktop systems however, but are quick
to point out how much more productive we would be if we adopted their
software and their hardware. There is quite a bit of truth to what
they say, and the only thing that really keeps us from utilizing them
more is price, as their stuff truely is superior to what we're using.
I'd have to say that in the next 18 months or so we're going to see a
convergence between the high and consumer end of 3D software. I do
believe though that the high end will always get the cool stuff first,
and it will then trickle on down to us. The main thing that will
change will be the speed at which we get the new stuff. Turn around
times are getting shorter and shorter, as it's not too hard to find
IK in desktop systems anymore for example.
We just recently had a Playmation demo. Good splines, spine
deformation tools, skin, 3D IK, a great materials editor, good output
quality- all for only $700.!!! That's a great example of a power app
for the masses. Tools that only two short years ago cost a fortune!
Price/performance ratios like that even start to give apps like 3DS
and LightWave a run for it's money- quite a turn of events!
Very interesting comments, Greg. I think you see things going in
about the same direction I do. My only hope is that, in time, people
like the Yost group will make it possible to turn around the old
"worstation stuff gets the toys first routine", and truly turn the
whole shebang into one, competitive industry for all of us. Thanks
again for the thoughts,
I think that will happen once hardware prices fall further and
developers like the Yost Group have access to the same performance
systems as the big boys. One reason why Alias and Softimage are so
cutting edge is because they all program for SGI based hardware. They
can have all kinds of esoteric features because the platform running
it can handle the load. Also, as more and more desktop developers
form strategic alliances with major effects houses and production
companies, they will have the necessary edge needed to develope the
kinds of tools wanted most by professionals, which benefits all their
end users at release time. That's why Alias and Softimage have such
great features; ILM is their most prolific beta test and development
site.
One of the reasons our software package has the kinds of features in
it is because shows like seaQuest and Babylon 5 work closley with the
programmer to develope tools that are needed to get the job done. If
you were to look at 2.0 LightWave and compare it to 3.1, you'll see a
HUGE difference in not only the look of the program but also the wide
and varied range of additional features. And 4.0 will be just as
big. It is an exciting time!
PMJI, but if compositing is what you're after, Wavefront's Composer is
really the best around in my (non-exspurt <g>) opinion.
Well then! Since all these turkeys are dying to get in bed with us,
maybe I should check that one out too! Thanks for the tip.
Ask the animator(s) yourself! Email Conrad Stolze 72110,1263 who did
it (at least primarily) or Chuck Mies 72110,1263 (with whom Conrad
worked at the time) may be able to tell you.