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To PD, or not PD?
19 messages in this thread
Alas, I just spent 20 minutes composing a reply to your message, having first
forwarded it ahead to the "front" of the board; immediately after storing it,
we experienced a system crash at our Dublin computer center, and both our
messages were lost. Since I think your message deserves a public hearing,
I'm reposting it again below; my response will follow.
10-Jul-86 18:05:39
Has everyone here to read the Rules of Operation at the 'GO RULES'? I don't
think most members of the Amiga Forum are aware of the implications of the
Compuserve user agreement. A few days ago, I spoke with Jim Rulfs, a
Compuserve representative, and he clarified this for me. Compuserve was
worried about the origin of software on the AMICUS disks.
The software in the data libraries is not to be distributed to your friends and
local user group. It is the property of Compuserve.
You have paid a fee to get this software and information, and it is a violation
of your user agreement to give it to anyone else.
Compuserve has the right to terminate your account if you violate the
membership agreement. It may be public domain, but since you got it from here,
you may not distribute it to others.
If you see people re-distributing software from Compuserve, or circulating
copies of the message base here, or posting either to another network or BBS,
please inform them that they are openly violating their membership agreement,
and alert a representative of Compuserve.
[My response is attached as a reply. – DWP]
That's ridiculous. If I write a program which I wish to place
in the public domain, and if (having paid a subscription
to Compuserve) I make it available to other users of
Compuserve, it remains in the public domain. It does not become
the property of Compuserve, it does not become the property
of the user who downloaded it. It is still public domain and may
be distributed as such. If Compuserve tried to enforce any
other policy, I'm sure they'd see a marked decrease in the amount
of uploads they receive. People upload software to Compuserve
(and other bbs's) so that it can be FREELY distributed to
the maximum number of other computer users. Compuserve already
got paid for the upload and the download!!.
By the way, I'm in Dublin too and have an Amiga. Maybe
we should get together and exchange (PUBLIC DOMAIN) software.
I'm just off on three weeks holidays. Catch any messages after
that.
As the Unix guys say: "Live Free or Die"
You were responding to John's interpretation of the policy, not our statement
of it. Tho' not intentional, I think you'll find by reading my reply to John
that his interpretation was somewhat flawed. Please do read my reply, which is
attached to John's message.
Re: getting together, by all means! There's a very active Amiga User Group
which meets regularly each month, coincidentally in a room here at CompuServe's
Upper Arlington facility, here in the Columbus area. If you're interested, drop
me a note with a phone number and/or address via EasyPlex and I'll see that you
get a copy of the newsletter and a notice of when the next meeting will take
place.
You were responding to John's interpretation of the policy, not our statement
of it. Tho' not intentional, I think you'll find by reading my reply to John
that his interpretation was somewhat flawed. Please do read my reply, which is
attached to John's message.
Re: getting together, by all means! There's a very active Amiga User Group
which meets regularly each month, coincidentally in a room here at CompuServe's
Upper Arlington facility, here in the Columbus area. If you're interested, drop
me a note with a phone number and/or address via EasyPlex and I'll see that you
get a copy of the newsletter and a notice of when the next meeting will take
place.
That's ridiculous. If I write a program which I wish to place
in the public domain, and if (having paid a subscription
to Compuserve) I make it available to other users of
Compuserve, it remains in the public domain. It does not become
the property of Compuserve, it does not become the property
of the user who downloaded it. It is still public domain and may
be distributed as such. If Compuserve tried to enforce any
other policy, I'm sure they'd see a marked decrease in the amount
of uploads they receive. People upload software to Compuserve
(and other bbs's) so that it can be FREELY distributed to
the maximum number of other computer users. Compuserve already
got paid for the upload and the download!!.
By the way, I'm in Dublin too and have an Amiga. Maybe
we should get together and exchange (PUBLIC DOMAIN) software.
I'm just off on three weeks holidays. Catch any messages after
that.
As the Unix guys say: "Live Free or Die"
John,
You're basically correct; however, permit me to address a few of your comments,
and correct several possible misimpressions that could be drawn from them:
o CompuServe is concerned about re-distribution of software and other files
originating in our Data Libraries, especially for profit or to mass audiences
of one type or another. We do not and will not get hysterical about an
individual user who happens to give a single copy of his favorite program to
a friend or associate, on the presumption that this loosely falls within the
realm of "personal use". However, our policy does prohibit the
re-distribution of software obtained here on CompuServe by media directed to
an audience at large, such as a BBS, a user group disk, or another
telecomputing service. I think the difference between these two modes of
distribution – a single copy provided to an individual, and a copy placed on
a medium for public or mass consumption – is less than subtle.
o The statement that "software in the data libraries … is the property of
CompuServe" is easily misinterpreted. CompuServe's copyright policy does
nothing to supersede the rights of the author of the software or file; we do
not in effect "take possession" of the file on upload. The author is still
free to distribute the file through other media of his choice, to specify his
own limits on further distribution, or to withdraw it from distribution upon
request to the appropriate Forum Manager. If a file, which happens to be
found in our Data Libraries, is obtained from another source or from the
author, that is beyond the scope of CompuServe's policy. The policy does,
however, specify that a file may not be downloaded from a Data Library here
on CompuServe and then placed into another medium intended for
re-distribution to a larger audience than the individual user who downloaded
it. When you mention the "fee" paid, in the form of connect charges, by a
user who downloads a given file, it is in effect a fee for personal use only;
you are not purchasing rights of re-distribution, either from CompuServe or
from the original author of the file.
o Yes, "CompuServe has the right to terminate your account if you violate
the membership agreement". I don't, however, recall this being mentioned in
your conversation with Jim, and it is not a right which is exercised
casually. In general, our procedure is to contact the user, ensure that our
copyright policy and the membership agreement are understood, attempt to
obtain compliance both in the present case and in the future, and go from
there. This was the nature of your discussion with Jim. If there is a
continuing problem involving a given user after these efforts have been made,
then yes, termination of the user's account is one of the options available
to CompuServe in order to resolve the situation.
o While we appreciate your thought in suggesting that users "alert a
CompuServe representative" should they suspect misappropriation of files
originating here, we're frankly not interested in setting up a police force
to handle this sort of affair. Make no mistake about it, when clear cases
of violation of our policies are detected, we'll take steps to correct the
situation; but we aren't inviting the creation of a "Big Brother task force",
nor encouraging that members be "deputized" to keep a lookout for these
activities. Your suggestion that, in such cases, the individual submitting
the file for redistribution be advised of its nature, and that such files be
refused when they obviously originated here, should be sufficient to protect
both the user's interest and our own.
I don't want to use up a lot of daylight discussing this issue, as I think
the meaning and intent of the policy can be understood clearly simply by
reading it as posted on the service, and there are plenty of other issues to
be discussed here that are more appropriate to the environment. However, if
there are specific questions about the policy, you're free to contact me via
EasyPlex electronic mail to 70006,2026.
Best,
-<Dave>-
Dave Paul/CIS Product Marketing
Ahhh, I understand! On the roadmap of telecommunications, rather than an
interstate highway, CIS is more like a dead end street. 🙂
There is such a wealth of information available in CIS that I think that is
an unfair statement. They shouldn't be obligated to pass along everything
available in the DL's freely to other services or local BBS's etc. After all
they are in business to make money and they do provide a great service.
Marlene
Not at all. While "raids" of the DLs by a competing service may be naughty,
it seems a bit high handed to disallow an individual the authority to send
some useful or imaginative software onwards to another network. A good
program will show up on ( )Link, ( )IX, whatever — it just takes longer. I
give a copy on disk to a friend, from there he passes it on, and a third
party innocently uploads his new find to ( )elphi. Are we each accessories
to the crime of posting a CI$ program onto another network?
As all this was airing out, I had picked up a copy of the graphics version of
Hack from ( )Link. I decided not to upload it here, though; costs to much to
upload that large a file, and I wouldn't want to put CI$'s barriers in the
way of further PD distribution.
'Nuff sai. The grousing we may do in the forum isn't likely to change
network policy, and it takes up valuable message space.
Not at all. While "raids" of the DLs by a competing service may be naughty,
it seems a bit high handed to disallow an individual the authority to send
some useful or imaginative software onwards to another network. A good
program will show up on ( )Link, ( )IX, whatever — it just takes longer. I
give a copy on disk to a friend, from there he passes it on, and a third
party innocently uploads his new find to ( )elphi. Are we each accessories
to the crime of posting a CI$ program onto another network?
As all this was airing out, I had picked up a copy of the graphics version of
Hack from ( )Link. I decided not to upload it here, though; costs to much to
upload that large a file, and I wouldn't want to put CI$'s barriers in the
way of further PD distribution.
'Nuff sai. The grousing we may do in the forum isn't likely to change
network policy, and it takes up valuable message space.
There is such a wealth of information available in CIS that I think that is
an unfair statement. They shouldn't be obligated to pass along everything
available in the DL's freely to other services or local BBS's etc. After all
they are in business to make money and they do provide a great service.
Marlene
Ahhh, I understand! On the roadmap of telecommunications, rather than an
interstate highway, CIS is more like a dead end street. 🙂
What about ARC011? It states clearly that it is "freely redistributable"
software! Should it not be withdrawn? Sorry to go on-and-on about this but
it's IMPORTANT! You MUST either change the policy or NOT accept "freeware"
and "public domain" programs on these SIGS…it CAN'T be halfway. Public
Domain means JUST what it says. Rick Schaeffer
Rick – This is not a public domain network, it is some thing you buy, and
therefore, someone has rights to what is being sold, and rights are being
transferred.
Therefore, Compuserve can secure an ongoing 'collection copyright' over all the
information here, and charge for it, and control its distribution. Otherwise,
someone could repost the message base or DLs to another network, and Compuserve
would have no control of their product, which is a simple case of property law,
extended to the information age.
So, although this stuff may be PD, it isn't while it's here. I think there is
strength to the "parts is parts" argument, but not here. Of course, some
networks and BBSes regard PD as PD, and there is little question raised. You
are free to go to those networks, of course.
Rick – This is not a public domain network, it is some thing you buy, and
therefore, someone has rights to what is being sold, and rights are being
transferred.
Therefore, Compuserve can secure an ongoing 'collection copyright' over all the
information here, and charge for it, and control its distribution. Otherwise,
someone could repost the message base or DLs to another network, and Compuserve
would have no control of their product, which is a simple case of property law,
extended to the information age.
So, although this stuff may be PD, it isn't while it's here. I think there is
strength to the "parts is parts" argument, but not here. Of course, some
networks and BBSes regard PD as PD, and there is little question raised. You
are free to go to those networks, of course.
What about ARC011? It states clearly that it is "freely redistributable"
software! Should it not be withdrawn? Sorry to go on-and-on about this but
it's IMPORTANT! You MUST either change the policy or NOT accept "freeware"
and "public domain" programs on these SIGS…it CAN'T be halfway. Public
Domain means JUST what it says. Rick Schaeffer
I think the 'GO RULES' are quite clear, and I support them, since this is a
contract I have signed. Every CIS member has agreed to this contract, and I
don't think it's a big deal to talk about it here, in section 0.
I don't think I've mis-interpreted the 'GO RULES', or my conversation with Jim
Rulfs. I explicitly asked about the case where a person might give a copy of a
CIS-downloaded program to a friend. He said "No." I suggest one of us call
him to clarify.
"Personal use" doesn't mean that you can give a copy to a friend. The same
thing applies to commercial software, of course. Obviously, once this happens,
the original contract holder is not in control of that software, and it could
easily fall into the hands of a user group – an action against the spirit of
the 'GO RULES', and CIS policy.
In other words, could I give a transcript of the CIS message base to a friend,
under this interpretation of "personal use"? I think not. Under your
interpretation, is there any difference between the message base, and the files
in the DLs?
Also, Rulfs recommended the action I stated in my message; that any spotted
violations of these rules should be reported to a CIS representative. If I
spotted StarTerm 3.01 on another network, shouldn't I report it? Unless I've
just been appointed "deputy", :-), I can't see why this shouldn't apply to any
Forum member.
I think the 'GO RULES' are quite clear, and I support them, since this is a
contract I have signed. Every CIS member has agreed to this contract, and I
don't think it's a big deal to talk about it here, in section 0.
I don't think I've mis-interpreted the 'GO RULES', or my conversation with Jim
Rulfs. I explicitly asked about the case where a person might give a copy of a
CIS-downloaded program to a friend. He said "No." I suggest one of us call
him to clarify.
"Personal use" doesn't mean that you can give a copy to a friend. The same
thing applies to commercial software, of course. Obviously, once this happens,
the original contract holder is not in control of that software, and it could
easily fall into the hands of a user group – an action against the spirit of
the 'GO RULES', and CIS policy.
In other words, could I give a transcript of the CIS message base to a friend,
under this interpretation of "personal use"? I think not. Under your
interpretation, is there any difference between the message base, and the files
in the DLs?
Also, Rulfs recommended the action I stated in my message; that any spotted
violations of these rules should be reported to a CIS representative. If I
spotted StarTerm 3.01 on another network, shouldn't I report it? Unless I've
just been appointed "deputy", :-), I can't see why this shouldn't apply to any
Forum member.
John,
You're basically correct; however, permit me to address a few of your comments,
and correct several possible misimpressions that could be drawn from them:
o CompuServe is concerned about re-distribution of software and other files
originating in our Data Libraries, especially for profit or to mass audiences
of one type or another. We do not and will not get hysterical about an
individual user who happens to give a single copy of his favorite program to
a friend or associate, on the presumption that this loosely falls within the
realm of "personal use". However, our policy does prohibit the
re-distribution of software obtained here on CompuServe by media directed to
an audience at large, such as a BBS, a user group disk, or another
telecomputing service. I think the difference between these two modes of
distribution – a single copy provided to an individual, and a copy placed on
a medium for public or mass consumption – is less than subtle.
o The statement that "software in the data libraries … is the property of
CompuServe" is easily misinterpreted. CompuServe's copyright policy does
nothing to supersede the rights of the author of the software or file; we do
not in effect "take possession" of the file on upload. The author is still
free to distribute the file through other media of his choice, to specify his
own limits on further distribution, or to withdraw it from distribution upon
request to the appropriate Forum Manager. If a file, which happens to be
found in our Data Libraries, is obtained from another source or from the
author, that is beyond the scope of CompuServe's policy. The policy does,
however, specify that a file may not be downloaded from a Data Library here
on CompuServe and then placed into another medium intended for
re-distribution to a larger audience than the individual user who downloaded
it. When you mention the "fee" paid, in the form of connect charges, by a
user who downloads a given file, it is in effect a fee for personal use only;
you are not purchasing rights of re-distribution, either from CompuServe or
from the original author of the file.
o Yes, "CompuServe has the right to terminate your account if you violate
the membership agreement". I don't, however, recall this being mentioned in
your conversation with Jim, and it is not a right which is exercised
casually. In general, our procedure is to contact the user, ensure that our
copyright policy and the membership agreement are understood, attempt to
obtain compliance both in the present case and in the future, and go from
there. This was the nature of your discussion with Jim. If there is a
continuing problem involving a given user after these efforts have been made,
then yes, termination of the user's account is one of the options available
to CompuServe in order to resolve the situation.
o While we appreciate your thought in suggesting that users "alert a
CompuServe representative" should they suspect misappropriation of files
originating here, we're frankly not interested in setting up a police force
to handle this sort of affair. Make no mistake about it, when clear cases
of violation of our policies are detected, we'll take steps to correct the
situation; but we aren't inviting the creation of a "Big Brother task force",
nor encouraging that members be "deputized" to keep a lookout for these
activities. Your suggestion that, in such cases, the individual submitting
the file for redistribution be advised of its nature, and that such files be
refused when they obviously originated here, should be sufficient to protect
both the user's interest and our own.
I don't want to use up a lot of daylight discussing this issue, as I think
the meaning and intent of the policy can be understood clearly simply by
reading it as posted on the service, and there are plenty of other issues to
be discussed here that are more appropriate to the environment. However, if
there are specific questions about the policy, you're free to contact me via
EasyPlex electronic mail to 70006,2026.
Best,
-<Dave>-
Dave Paul/CIS Product Marketing