#Non Linear Edit H/dsks
20 messages in this thread
Hi I hope I get this message right as I'm new to the Forum. I am based in
Scotland near the castle were Brahms Stoker got the idea to write Dracula from
– and believe me at night I can see why. At present I shoot mainly on SVHS but
hope to move across to Betacam soon. Most of my work so far has been motor
sport geared.
I am looking to get a non linear edit system sometime later this year and I was
wondering about a few points. I suspect that the Avid systems will be out of my
budget, so it looks like it will be the Media 100 on the MAC or possibly a PC
based FAST Video Machine system with DPR.
Can anyone out there using advise me of the good points and the drawbacks of
either of the systems, what is the ideal spec needed to operate with and
generally any feedback anyone would care to offer.
With the Hard disks being used to everything can I expect any problems with
them and what sort of life span can I expect. Also what sort of learning curve
is there using such a system – computerwise I'm quite expert with PC's but have
no experience using a Mac.
Can anyone recommend any good books or videos on the subject of NLE as over
here there is little to be found.
regards
Richard Edgar
REVS Productions
Richard –
I just started using the Fast Video Machine with SC Box and like it very much.
I am new to the environment (Fast, not PCs) but found lurking over on the Fast
VM forum (GO MULTIBVEND/Section 6) invaluable prior to my purchase. It's still
one of the best forums around for support of the VM (as well as other
videography questions.) The user community over there is diverse and
knowledgeable.
I would HIGHLY recommend you getting in touch with the following two
individuals on CompuServe (via E-Mail):
1) Mike Yeager (72262,2456)
Mike has what many consider to be the definitive video on the Video Machine.
Many dealers pacakge his tape as the introductory tutorial to VM. Many folks
(myself included) buy it as a sales demo.
2) Dan Biggs (75561,2215)
Dan has just produced a tape on the Fast VM – DP/R combo. He's selling out of
every run he produces, so there must be some valuable information in there
<g>… Seriously, though, Dan is a good guy and works with the DP/R
professionally on a daily basis.
I covet a DP/R but am waiting for my EVO-9720 -> UVW1800 setup to pay back a
bit of the money I've invested before I get more.
My experience with drives is that they require replacement because they "become
too slow", before they need to be replaced for breakage.
Others here will have to address alternative solutions.
All the best…
db.out
Hi David,
Very interested in your advice to Richard. I'm trying to enter the
Non-linear stream.. sounds like you're farther along. I include my note to
Richard.
Hi Richard,
I've been looking at this same stuff for the last 2 months. I've
worked on the Amiga since it came out but am reluctantly having to deal with
what looks like the end of a great machine. Still, the BEST hardware at
anything close to the price is on the Amiga.. Vlab motion non-linear, 16 bit
audio, 30fps/60fields/sec 640×480 rez capture and output Y/c in but soon to
have component in for $400 +. The software is good but not up to Premiere (in
my mind the leader.. but then I'm aching to be out of videotape.. I've worked
in it for 20 years… and the potential of CD ROM is very intereesting to me)
My research tells me… no no MAC right now. Problems with NUBUS being
phased out… the new PPC's will all be PCI bus. I'm going to bet that the new
version of Windows will be VERY good now that it will have kissed of DOS, that
relic. MACs won't be stable for at least a year… "they" say. Card makers
aren't committing till they see what the new PPC's look like.
I'm going to buy a Pentium machine (pretty sure). The architecture
looks stable. PCI here now. Pentium solid. And there's a new crop of cards
that are 640×480 30fps/ 60flds/sec. What looks most interesting to me is
Interactive Images' "Plumb" (yes, "Plumb" ?) Due to hit the market in June,
will debut at NAB. It will be bundled with a Turtle Beach audio card, a SCSI 2
contoller, and Premiere 4.0 (I like that!)… the price quoted over the phone
was $5995. Its PCI. Looks good.. I'm waiting to see.
Any of you folks got any ideas what to do till then. I'd like to start
working with Premiere now. Miro card? MMachine card? other? looking for a
30frames/sec 320 x240 solution. and would like it to have Sempte in to do
EDL's. Is there such a beast for $1000?+/-
Would appreciate any advice
all the best TOM
Tom –
You're approaching this from a different angle than I did. I'm really not up
to non-linear yet, but I'm committed to the Fast VM platform for the forseeable
future. This is why I believe there's a DP/R in my future. I've got a dual
Hi8 tape deck to use as two players (EVO-9720) and I'm editing onto a UVW-1800
betacam deck. All strictly linear. I see you approaching this from a movie
machine/miro angle and you may end up with a smaller investment and being way
ahead of the game – eventually. I bought the equipment I did because I'm
targeting a corporate market with specific training tapes, and felt that
anything below betacam would turn off my market, making my investment useless.
So… I probably overspent. But the quality will be there.
I would suggest you talk with Bertel Schmitt over e-mail, or in the fast video
machine forum (GO MULTIBVEND, section 6) His ID is 73220,2562. Bertel is a
fountain of knowledge (as this is how he makes his money, I believe) over there
about the Movie Machine and its ilk. There is another well known person over
there who is very knowledgeable and writes multimedia books. His name escapes
me, but Bertel will know it.
david.
Tom –
The other person who's name I forgot was Ron Wodaski (75530,3711). (Sorry Ron –
neuron-melt) He's a valuable resource to tap into along with Bertel. They had
some fun conversations a few months ago over in the Fast forum.
db.out
David,
You don't actually try and make money before you spend it, do you? <big grin>
-John
John –
I count "trying" as counting to 10 slowly before I pick up the phone with my
credit card. <VBG>
david.
David –
Thanks you the reply, I must admit I was leaning more towards the FAST setup as
it will run on a PC which I feel comfortable with and it appears to be used
more over hear in the UK. The Media100 on paper seems a great system but with
the MAC requiring 80MB of memory it seems to me to have setup problems written
all over it.
Problem is I can guarentee that I get at least 2-3 calls a month from vendors
pushing there systems and accusing the FAST Video Machine of system crashes all
the time. As it is a mega step for me to move across to NLE, I want to make
sure I know all the ins and outs of the system I choose.
Anyway I shall be going to a show where I can check out all the systems in a
few weeks so we will what happens after that
Thanks
Richard.
Richard –
Be ready to spend $14,000 to $ 20,000 (sorry don't know conversion rates). And
then you will still have to manage storage carefully.
I've been watching the market for about a year now. I too am a PC person, not
MAC literate, and only an amatuer at video. ("Computers are easy, video is a
…")
I have been of the opinion for a while that I was going to have to buy a MAC –
but I'm not sure anymore. I'm biding my time and working with a linear desktop
system.
FAST Video Machine is certainly an excellent possibility – BUT it is ALL their
system – hardware and software. I'm still somewhat suspicious of a hardware
company doing software. (And if FAST is a software company – then vice versa).
But it is very impressive. And it is PC based. It is very definitely an
editing suite system, as opposed to some systems that might be considered more
"multimedia".
The DPR feature also allows animation output – fancy flying titles (if you can
generate the frames).
I think the thing that worries me about it is that from what I have seen you
can't expect to see packages like Adobe Premiere working with it. That could
lead to loss of functionality – or a future limited to the vision of FAST,
their time schedule, and their vested interests.
Rumor has it that AVID is bringing out a PC version.
One thing too – what I've seen so far suggests that you need to be ready to
"hack" a PC system (lots of setup headaches – this doesn't apply to the FAST
system though). While in the MAC world – it's plug and play.
I don't know about hard disks, but their MTBF has been going up steadily every
year. They will probably be less trouble than you might think.
Hope this helps.
Will be interested in seeing what you end up with .
Ken
Hi Ken,
I send you a copy of the note I put into the forum… Looks like
you're farther along the same track I'm trying to enter.
I've been looking at this same stuff for the last 2 months. I've
worked on the Amiga since it came out but am reluctantly having to deal with
what looks like the end of a great machine. Still, the BEST hardware at
anything close to the price is on the Amiga.. Vlab motion non-linear, 16 bit
audio, 30fps/60fields/sec 640×480 rez capture and output Y/c in but soon to
have component in for $400 +. The software is good but not up to Premiere (in
my mind the leader.. but then I'm aching to be out ov videotape.. I've worked
in it for 20 years… and the potential of CD ROM is very intereesting to me)
My research tells me… no no MAC right now. Problems with NUBUS being
phased out… the new PPC's will all be PCI bus. I'm going to bet that the new
version of Windows will be VERY good now that it will have kissed of DOS, that
relic. MACs won't be stable for at least a year… "they" say. Card makers
aren't committing till they see what the new PPC's look like.
I'm going to buy a Pentium machine (pretty sure). The architecture
looks stable. PCI here now. Pentium solid. And there's a new crop of cards
that are 640×480 30fps/ 60flds/sec. What looks most interesting to me is
Interactive Images' "Plumb" (yes, "Plumb" ?) Due to hit the market in June,
will debut at NAB. It will be bundled with a Turtle Beach audio card, a SCSI 2
contoller, and Premiere 4.0 (I like that!)… the price quoted over the phone
was $5995. Its PCI. Looks good.. I'm waiting to see.
Any of you folks got any ideas what to do till then. I'd like to start
working with Premiere now. Miro card? MMachine card? other? looking for a
30frames/sec 320 x240 solution. and would like ti to have Sempte in to do
EDL's. Is there such a beast for $1000?+/-
Would appreciate any advice
all the best TOM
Ken –
Thanks for the reply – the more I read and the more I see the more difficult it
gets to decide which route to go down.
Hopefully I will get a chance to check out the systems at a show in a few weeks
time.
Regards
Richard
Hi Richard,
I've been looking at this same stuff for the last 2 months. I've
worked on the Amiga since it came out but am reluctantly having to deal with
what looks like the end of a great machine. Still, the BEST hardware at
anything close to the price is on the Amiga.. Vlab motion non-linear, 16 bit
audio, 30fps/60fields/sec 640×480 rez capture and output Y/c in but soon to
have component in for $400 +. The software is good but not up to Premiere (in
my mind the leader.. but then I'm aching to be out ov videotape.. I've worked
in it for 20 years… and the potential of CD ROM is very intereesting to me)
My research tells me… no no MAC right now. Problems with NUBUS being
phased out… the new PPC's will all be PCI bus. I'm going to bet that the new
version of Windows will be VERY good now that it will have kissed of DOS, that
relic. MACs won't be stable for at least a year… "they" say. Card makers
aren't committing till they see what the new PPC's look like.
I'm going to buy a Pentium machine (pretty sure). The architecture
looks stable. PCI here now. Pentium solid. And there's a new crop of cards
that are 640×480 30fps/ 60flds/sec. What looks most interesting to me is
Interactive Images' "Plumb" (yes, "Plumb" ?) Due to hit the market in June,
will debut at NAB. It will be bundled with a Turtle Beach audio card, a SCSI 2
contoller, and Premiere 4.0 (I like that!)… the price quoted over the phone
was $5995. Its PCI. Looks good.. I'm waiting to see.
Any of you folks got any ideas what to do till then. I'd like to start
working with Premiere now. Miro card? MMachine card? other? looking for a
30frames/sec 320 x240 solution. and would like ti to have Sempte in to do
EDL's. Is there such a beast for $1000?+/-
Would appreciate any advice
all the best TOM
For what it is worth, I have found the following combo to be the best value for
my money and the type of work I do:
he alternative to this type of thing is something like a Personal Animation
Recorder/TBC-IV combo. The are standard ISA devices but do not rely on the bus
to handle video information. They are processors in amongst themselves and
only use the bus to receive instructions from your operating system.
752×480, 60 field per second capture is standard with this combo irregardless
of what computer you are running them in. Albiet, this solution is a tad more
expensive than, say, a $500.00 capture card but depending on what quality of
output you wish to attain, it is money well spent. Biggest problem with
standard capture cards (just my opinion) is their compatiblity (or lack
thereof) with whatever video accellerator you happen to have. While there is
supposed to be the VESA 1.2 standard as well as a standard feature connection,
the slightest anomolie an a video card's bios or driver can cause problems.
I use the PAR/TBC combo everyday for everything from 3D animation to
rotoscoping and playing around with the latest video's of my two year old.
Just throwing my opinion into the pot 🙂
Dean Oliver
Virtually Real
Thomas –
Ah a fellow Amiga fan – I wish they would hurry up and decide what is going to
happen with the Amiga. Over in the UK the management buyout seem sure they
have won thru – but then they have said that for months now. I would have
loved to have used the Amiga to do NLE and indeed there is a system being
advertised over here called "Broadcast Elite or 32" which retails at around
L11500 (say $18000). Haven't got any details of it but it may be worth a look
if AMiga got their act together. Have just read a review of the VLAB Motion
software which was interesting.
Interesting to here about the MACS and NUBUS being phased out. I think never
having used a MAc is putting off them slightly – but there again look at the
problems with the Pentium chips.
No doubt by the time I come to invest in a system the computer world will have
moved on to a different area.
Regards
Richard
Hi Richard,
Amiga sure. Great machine. There's lots of foot dragging on the
buyout… evidently previous owners trying to protect themselves from financial
scams they pulled just before the collapse. Did they steal from the till??
Was the Amiga actually commercially successful and those clowns raided the
till?? Very possible it seems. Commodre techs say they have a great computer
on the boards fi they ever get a backer… but it may be too late. The missed
their chance to define the market in '88-90.
The non-linear system you mention at $18000 is a no go. New Tech (the
Video Toaster) has come out with the FLYER (delivering now). Video qualtiy is
said to be superb (next to zip artifacts even with enough compression to
squeeze alot on disc)… not that expensive BUT you need a A4000 + video
toaster plus the inevitable hard-drives. Very well engineered though. For me
a problem though because of the fact that JPEG is not the acquistion / storage
type, and I want ot work with multi-media app.s so Premiere etc. is the
choice.
VLAB motion is another story though. It is JEPG. Uses the same chips
as AVID. The Amiga is only the controller and effects renderer (transitions…
which can include morphs etc.). The software is developmental but solid AND
the cards complete with Premiere-ish" video and a separate audio editing
program sells for $1850. Less than half the price of equivalent set-ups on the
PC. You can us A3000 (my computer of choice). Its a toss up for me right now.
It is supposed to have a Sempte module this month or next. Fear of DEAD Amigas
is the problem or I'd be go….
La de DA..
all the best to you
tom
Hi Thomas,
I use the PAR/TBCIV and Turtle Beach board for DTV. It works really well.
I am useing Razor Pro. Its an impressive editing package that
works directly with the PAR under windows.
The Par will work with component input and output and the quality is top notch.
I use it with Y/C I/O.
No setup hassles.
The only limitations is Hard Drives. It uses IDE hard drives and that limits
you to 2.
This allows you only 5 to 10 minutes of high quality video. But for what I do
it
works just fine. I work mostly on coporate presentation videos/animations.
About the FAST I have seen a demo and would be concerned about its
non linear software. The last time I saw it (about 6 months ago) it looked non
to stable. But 6 months is a long time and they probably have fixed all their
problems by now. The picture quality was far superior to any I've seen.
According to what I've read on the net the compression can go down as low
as 3 to 1. If thats true thats its like no compression at all but hard disks
you will
need. At 9MB per sec at 3 to 1 compression its going need a lot of GIGS.
But so what if it does the job..
Hope this helps Bob.
Richard,
Hi and welcome to the DTV Forum! In response to your question I must say that
I have heard nothing but good about the Media 100. The only drawback that I
can think of is the fact that all of the effects and CG are rendered, costing
time in a time is money business.
The Fast Video Machine with the DP/R is more familiar to me and I must say that
I think that a properly configured system offers an excellent solution to video
production.
-John
John –
Thanks for the reply. I find this forum very interesting and great for info.
The Media 100 seems to be getting a push over here in the UK at present and I
hope to see one in action in a few weeks time a the London Video show. However
being a PC person I get slightly worried at the Mac spec for running Media 100
– 80MB memory!!!!
On the Video Machines side of things I heard problems with PC's crashing during
editing. Have you ever experienced any problems of this sort???
Regards
Richard
Richard,
The Fast can and will crash at times, but with experience you can learn what
will cause problems and avoid them. It is a complex system but it is one of
the more "mature" DTV packages out there.
-John
Richard,
I have been working literally every day with my new Fast VM system for about 6
weeks now. It has crashed 3 time now. I have to do something really dumb to
get it to crash. The price versus quality output and the disersity of
capabilities makes the VM the obvious choice. The Media 100 was going to be my
choice until I saw both systems demo at the same video expo. I have the
nonlinear board on order so I have not used it but
the demo of it and the articles reviewing its output leave no question that it
stands at or near the top for quality.
I feel that the answers that you are getting are beating around the bush. If
you are comparing the Fast with the Media 100 – get the Fast.
Also the Fast is a hybrid system controlling tape decks and nonliner edits at
the same time.
OK joe
PS I am not a dealer.