#DECnet for Amiga
46 messages in this thread
To all Amigans;
I just tested the coolest thing I have seen for the Amiga in a long time.
It's called DECnet, yes real DECnet. This is the type of network that
Digital Equipment Corp. uses to connect together VAXes and other computers.
I am a alpha tester for this product, called ENLAN. It can be used to
connect Amiga to Amiga, Amiga to DEC or any combination. I was able to get
into the second largest DECnet network in the world (next to DEC itself)
and my Amiga 1000 was just another node like all of the big VAXes.
REAL networking has finally come to the Amiga, every computer can be the
server, including your Amiga. I believe this product is going to open many
oppertunities for the Amiga. This is going to be HOT. If you are interested
in the ENLAN network the name of the company is:
INTERWORKS 195 Main St. Suite 230 Milford, MA 01757
P.S. I have NO financial stake in this company, I'm just impressed with
what I could do with my Amiga connected into a large wide-area network.
How does the VAX appear? As an Amiga volume? Does Workbench look for a
Disk.info file on the VAX and then draw a disk icon?
You go through utilities like Copy, Dir, etc. Since the standard Amiga
commands know nothing of DECnet this is necesary. I understand that there
is a possibility that the network access will be completly transparent. At
this point there is no workbench support, but there will be in the final
version. (So I am told).
Is it working with an ethernet board?
I can answer a few more questions with respect to Interworks and the
DECnet product we're working on. To get the legalities out of the way, the
name of the product is the ENLAN(tm) Network System. ENLAN is a trademark
of Interworks. There, I feel a lot better now.
Anyways, the network system as it stands today is a end-node
implementation of DECnet Phase IV for the Amiga. As such, it has a peer
relationship with any other DECnet nodes connected or routed to it. That
means the Amiga is functional in any valid DECnet configuration – Amiga to
Amiga, Amiga to VAX/VMS, Amiga to Ultrix (tested and working) and
theoretically to PCs and MACs running DECnet (not tried yet).
The Amiga supports "Asynchronous DECnet" with serial speeds up to 25K
baud using the internal serial hardware. Third-party serial boards should
be able to run at higher speeds. Answering the obvious next question, yes,
we are working on an Ethernet board. We have a system running in-house
(it's awesome) but production units are still a ways away.
The ENLAN Network System has task-to-task communication, named and
numbered network objects and a set of file utilities. It also has dial-in
and dial-out modem control for dynamic connections. Forthcoming is network
virtual terminal capability ("set host") with multiple outgoing links.
The system has been running since September and is quite solid. We are
currently looking for alpha test sites and also for developers wishing to
add network capability to their product. Interworks is a member of the
Amiga Network Working Group. Interested parties may contact me here via
EasyPlex or a letter to the following address.
Nick Frabotta
Interworks
195 Main St., Suite 230
Milford, MA 01757
Is Interworks set up to acommodate busloads of pilgrims for visits to the
site to see with their own eyes Amiga running DECnet over Ethernet? Your
own board? Not Ameristar's?
WRT pilgrims, if that happens I hope you've got a reservation. 🙂
And yes, our own board.
Does your company have any plans to do further networking software? I am
particularly interested in NFS capabilities.
I heard a mention of Ethernet. I would like to suggest that you look at
the NODEM from Adaptec. The NODEM is an SCSI to Ethernet bridge. It could
be less expensive than an Ethernet card for those who have an SCSI
controller. There is also a parallel to Ethernet device available. I've
seen it in the Black Box catalog.
But is there supporting software available for the Amiga?
You gotta have the tools before you can build the house…
There are several SCSI to Ethernet adapters floating around. It would be
real nice for someone with an A1000, if there's any left after the Big
Trade, to be able to hook up to Ethernet via their SCSI or parallel
interface.
Not just for someone with an A1000. The pricing of SCSI to Ethernet
adapters is fairly competative (from what I know), and I would rather use
the SCSI bus that is in my system to its potential before filling another
slot! Besides, an SCSI to Ethernet box would be great for someone with an
A500. One SCSI host adapter on the expansion port would be better than
worrying about passthrough, etc.
Each SCSI bus can support eight devices, each with eight logical units,
each with 256 subunits. That's a lot of potential!
Chris, I agree. I should have said _especially_ for someone with an A1000;
but yes, a SCSI to Ethernet adapter would be applicable to all Amiga's that
have (an expandable) SCSI disk adapter.
Not only would a scuzzie to ethernet adapeter be useful for Amiga, but just
about any computer. Hmmm, this could be a plan. -BOB-
I know of two that exist. The Adaptec is MUCH more affordable, but the
Kinetics claims to pass DECnet protocol. I don't know why the Adaptec
wouldn't so maybe it's just a marketing ploy from Kinetics (their product
is about twice the Adaptec price).
Adaptec is also a very very major company in the SCSI world. They make a
large number of SCSI related products, including testing and development
kits. They also make the SCSI host adapters that Digital Equipment Corp
(DEC) is using in its PCs. DEC also uses SCSI in the VAX 3100 computers.
That may be Adaptec too.
If anyone is seriously interested, let me know and I'll look up the Adaptec
address in my files.
If I use Dir, Copy, and so forth, do I refer to the VAX as a logical
volume? Is there an extended assign, VaxAssign Foo: DUA2:[someone.else] ?
I think Bob meant you use DIR, COPY and so forth from the VAX. The only
difference is you must use the "foreign file specification" syntax when
naming files: Dir/Size/Date Amiga::"devs:printers/*" (note the quotes)
that's all. All assigned Amiga logicals are recognized by the VAX. Programs
on the VAX can access the Amiga file system transparently (thru the magic
of DECnet).
Specific utilities are used to access the VAX from the Amiga since the
Amiga-DOS utilities don't recognize node names. There is the need to
adding access control (usernames & passwords) to access the VAX.
Uhh, Amiga-DOS utilities don't recognize node names, right, so I wouldn't
expect to be able to say '1> Copy NEWYRK::DUA1:[TRADERS]Tradelist.txt to
df0:TradeList.txt'
But, uhh, how about a handler, and a single utility VaxAssign, that would
let me aim an Amiga logical to a Vax directory, like this:
1> VaxAssign MyVax: NEWYRK::DUA1:[TRADERS]Tradelist.txt
1> dir MyVax:
Then dir invokes the handler for a MyVax: type of file system and gives me
a directory? Doesn't Bill Hawes' PathMan do something nifty with handlers
in order to join directories into a single logical?
Uhh, or couldn't there be a VaxMount command, like the CrossDOS approach,
that would Mount NEWYRK:: as a funny kind of disk drive the way CrossDOS
mounts df0: as a DOS-or-AmigaDOS disk drive?
> Uhh, Amiga-DOS utilities don't recognize node names, right, so I wouldn't
> expect to be able to say '1> Copy NEWYRK::DUA1:[TRADERS]Tradelist.txt to
> df0:TradeList.txt'
No. You'd say 'NetCopy NEWYRK::DUA1:[TRADERS]Tradelist.txt
df0:TradeList.txt'. And if you need access control, it's
'NEWYRK/user/pwd::DUA1:…'.
Answering your other questions… There certainly could be handlers. And
there certainly could be mounted file systems. Both facilities are so
underdocumented it's pathetic. Drivers I can do blindfolded. If I've
overlooked some magic scripture, feel free to point me in the right
direction. Without making promises before their time, some kind of
transparent file serving will more than likely be available in the Ethernet
version.
Uhh, you seem really interested in transparent access. Just what do you
need to do?
Transparent access (over ethernet) lets you use an Amiga 2000 as a
programmer's editor workstation on a VAX. Start up your favorite editor,
load the sources from the VAX, modify, save them, compile, repeat.
Is it common among DEC folks to wonder why someone would want transparently
accessed files from a server or peer?
Larry, I think it is common among DEC folks to assume that files on a peer
or server will be accessed transparently. VMS' Copy, Rename, and so forth
work whether I'm dealing with files on my node or on some remote node. VMS
has options that permit the system manager to make inter-node access
difficult as a security enhancement.
Interesting… I was wondering, because it seemed like the fellow answering
your questions was expressing some surprise that you wished to have
tranparent access.
The slickest transparent access to foreign file systems is done by the guy
who wrote CrossDOS. He's friendly enough on the telephone.
And what will it cost? And to allow amiga utilities to access VAX or other
decnet files would be great, done the way cross-dos does it. I can imagine
using your decnet and cross dos with a command like "COPY MYVAX"MYUSERNAME
MYPASSWORD"::$1$DUA2:[MYDIR.WRK]ABC.DAT C:DOSDIR\WORK /LOG" from my Amiga,
getting a file from a VAX at work (were I still employed) and copying the
file to my messydros partition on my Amiga hard drive while using your
decnet over my serial port.
I haven't priced it yet. [Well, I have, but it's too early to say.] Well,
that two comments for "the way Cross-DOS does it". I'll check it out.
Will there be a full SET HOST?
You will be able to SET HOST to any machine which implements the CTERM
protocol. You will be able to initiate multiple sessions to one or more
machines.
I like the idea that I could dial into a serial port on a VAX at a remote
location and establish a DECNET link to that VAX. That leaves me with a
new question; whenever I've set host from one VAX to another, I've always
been logged into the first VAX using a terminal, perhaps a VT340 or a 220.
How will I handle that with this DECnet? Will you include a 100 or 220 or
better terminal emulator, or allow some modified version of something like
handshake to be used?
First, how do you set the Amiga's node name? 2nd, what type of security
can you set up? 3rd, how does this product compare to TSSNET? 4th, does
it work with the GFXbase Xwindows product? ETC!
> how do you set the Amiga's node name?
The Amiga will have a node database. This will associate the node name
with the node number (among other things).
> what type of security can you set up?
All incoming and outgoing connect requests have an access control field
attached. They contain a username and password, or a proxy account name.
The Amiga has the means to check them and reject requests which don't
match. The Amiga can setup these fields when originating connections.
> how does this product compare to TSSNET?
[How come you can never find a TSSnet ad when you need one?] I imagine
they're comparable at a 'what do they do?' level. There's a 'basic
networking utilities' set which everyone does.
> does it work with the GFXbase Xwindows product?
I had talked to Dale Luck about it a few months ago. He's since been
wisked away to West Chester.
> ETC!
You're touching on just the questions that I hope will be resolved (soon)
by the Amiga Network Working Group. The goal is interoperability, standard
network application programming interfaces, and (if I have anything to say
about it) a uniform naming convention and access control.
It sounds like this will be highly compliant with what I've come to know
about DECnet. I'm painfully familiar with node names versus node numbers,
of course. It will be interesting, of course, to see how one implements
proxies on the Amiga. Actually, to me the biggest difference between
AmigaDos and VMS is that the one was designed to be multiuser, and the
other was not. I find that in use and in how they work some remarkable
similarities.
I hope you get back in touch with Dale at CATS; I have stated here on tech
that I'd like to see Amiga's set up as trader's workstations with decnet
(choice of ethernet or serial depending on location) and x/decwindows, a
68030 for proper performance, 1.4 and its higher resolutions (appropriate
chips and monitor), 80386 bridge so the traders can use products like 123,
etc. A package like that would do everything now done by MicroVax
workstations and more for a lot less money, and could really open things up
for Commodore.
While I am currently unemployed (and looking very hard in Manhattan), I
would be pleased to do anything I could to help you test your new product.
It's true, you'll see many similarities between implementations of any
given network software. It's reliability and the extras that will make one
product shine over the other. The Amiga DECnet from Syndesis Corporation
is a licensed port of proven commercial code from the Macintosh and Unix
world. In fact, it's being verified and tested on that company's computer
networks at this very moment, talking with VAXes, PCs and Macs.
In our first release of TSSnet, we'll have virtual terminal capabilities,
which means you can use your favorite Amiga terminal program to make
connections to the machines you want. GfxBase will soon start shipping the
version of X Window that works with our DECnet, over any Ethernet board
currently available, and even some that aren't available yet. 🙂 We also
work over modems and the serial port, including the higher speeds available
with the ASDG Dual Serial board.
Syndesis is working very closely with Commodore in many locations around
the globe, from techies working on the latest network software, to the
developer network working group, to dealers and salespeople who are adding
our DECnet to bids for installation in major corporations.
For those of you interested in DECnet for the Amiga, if you haven't
already, just send Syndesis a postcard, and we'll add you to our TSSnet
mailing list. Our address is N9353 Benson Road, Brooklyn, WI 53521, phone
(608) 455-1422. The person to contact is Bob Tolly, our Network Product
Manager. He'll send you our current TSSnet literature right away. I know
a number of people are engaged in conversations with Bob about the features
they'd like to see in Amiga TSSnet. I suspect the official beta testing
will begin in a week or so. If you'd li-"=DWR,KkW-YY9ed for beta testing,
send Bob a letter describing your network and the kind of things you do
with it. You might also want to check out the threads in the Syndesis
section in the AmigaVendor forum. The TSSnet threads are still there.
OK….I'll add to the list of questions too. 🙂
When and how much?
I'm impressed too and I wish them success in selling the product.
Now, if they can get some other network interfaces out there…. 🙂
What do you mean by other network interfaces? Ethernet boards?
ethernet, Appletalk, etc. It would be nice to have one company that takes
care of us amiga users, as apparently this company does, with respect to
DecNet. Just a thought.
All I can say, Brian, is that we ARE committed to taking care of us Amiga
users with respect to networking, whatever that needs to be.
I noticed that. Thank you for the information!
I would rather see competition in the Amiga market, it is better for the
users for a bunch of developers to be fighting for our dollars. I think if
anyone is going to be the "King of The Amiga Networks" I would like to see
it be Interworks. I know the type of talent they have and would expect very
fine products in the future.
Contradictory notions in that message "Competition" vs. "Interworks as the
'King of the Networks'" but I can't really say I disagree with either
notion. At least from a presence standpoint, Interworks has definitely got
my vote, even though I wouldn't know DECNet from a hole in the ground.
Nice to see somebody willing to talk to us.