CompuServe Thread

#MARS, anyone?

17 messages in this thread
#150681From: Scott LawrenceFeb 2, 1995 4:59 PM
Anyone had any experience with the new MARS MPEG board? (Inquiring minds want to know). Thanks! -Scott Lawrence
#150719From: John SchmidtFeb 2, 1995 8:24 PM
Scott, We've had a MARS demo unit for about a week; following is something I posted earlier about my experiences with it: _______________________________________________________ I finally got to spend some time with the MARS, (MPEG Animation Recording Ststem). I'll start out by describing the unit and its functions, then I'll let you know how it works. The MARS comes as one 16 bit ISA card; it's about a half-length long. It has an RCA output for the NTSC video, (it also does PAL), and 2 RCA outputs for stereo audio. It also has one S-VHS connector/output. The MPEG playback is *only* available through these outputs; it must be hooked up to a TV monitor to view your animations directly, unless you have another MPEG card, etc., for viewing them on your computer monitor. The MARS will *not* play back to your computer monitor. The RealMagic MPEG cards by Sigma *do* work fine for computer monitor playback with MPEG files created by the MARS; I imagine other compatible MPEG playback cards would also work. It also has no jumpers at all; in fact, it automatically configures itself for your system, though it will allow you to change the IRQ, etc., if it makes a mistake in searching out your system. It plugged right into my machine without any problems at all, even though I have a CD ROM, sound card, and modem. The software has a few different components. For directly rendering an MPEG file from 3DS, you use the supplied RDPADI driver. This will write the MPEG file; it *also* allows you to save your animation to disk at the *same* time, (if you want), as sequential TGA's, etc., or as a flic file. Writing the MPEG frames is almost instant; it adds a few seconds computation time on every third frame. The resolution is full screen at 352×240; it's also true color, so antialiasing looks *substantially* better than 256 colors at this resolution, particularly if you set your pixel size to 1.4 – 1.5. The default aspect is .89. It does *not* use field rendering from 3DS, (in fact, even converting field rendered file lists does not work; this card just does not understand fields in the typical sense, though it does appear to somehow interleave the frames during playback). Also, this driver *won't* work if you don't have the MARS card in, though, so you can't use the RDPADI driver by itself for writing MPEG's. If you have a TV monitor connected during rendering, it acts like a frame buffer, though instead af visually scan-line rendering to the screen, it puts each frame up as it's done being rendered. I noticed some artifacts while viewing these still images, but they were not really apparent during animation playback. The MPEG files can then be played through its DOS playback program, which outputs directly to video. You can loop the animations if you want, or put a series of them in a cue, which works well. You can also cue up audio MPEGS for playback at the same time as the video ones; this allows for quick animation with sound. This brings up a major shortcoming, at least in my opinion. The MARS card *will not* play back video/audio interleaved MPEGS; it also will not record audio/video interleaved MPEGS. The MARS people say they can fix this in software; they expressed surprise that anyone would want this! I'll be pushing them on the interleave capability; it's very important for what we do. It also comes with two utilities for creating MPEG files from the command line. The first will take a file list, such as an IFL file, and automatically convert all the images in the list to an MPEG file; even intermixed TGA's and JPEG's. It will automatically resize the images to the resolution you specify, (up to 352×240); the only caveat is that they all have to be the same resolution to start with; i.e., they would all have to be, say, 728×480, etc., to start. This is very fast, usually only taking a few seconds per frame; I *really* wish they would make this a stand-alone utility. It just blasts out a ready made MPEG right from your previously rendered TGA's. (Again, it *won't* work right with field rendered images, though; it does it's own field interpolation). The second command-line utility will convert .WAV audio files to an audio MPEG file, which can then be played back at the same time the video MPEG is playing. If you are careful, and make your .WAV files the right length, it should be fairly easy to get a good combination to tape, as the videos *do* appear to play back at a smooth 30 FPS, (25 if outputting to PAL). I still feel they need to add the capability to create and playback audio/video interleaved MPEG files. There are no Windows utilities at all. Now, on to some subjective opinions. The output looks very good on things like character animation, where you don't have a lot of straight lines moving very fast. It also is good for pre-visualization of things like architectural animations, though it really makes a difference if you slow down the camera enough so it isn't moving a lot between frames, especially when going around corners, etc., because straight lines cause noticeably more flicker than organic looking animations. Remember, you're only getting 352×240, so it's easy to get a movement that's too fast for this resolution, (the image will start to have noticeable flickering). That said, I did an animation of dollying in on a rotating logo, and this actually looked pretty good. As to who might need this card, and who it is worthwhile for, (the list is $1500), I's say it falls into a few catagories. The first would be those that already have a high quality video output system, but want to get 30 FPS pre-visualization studies *very* quickly. At 352×240, renderings take *substantially* less time than at full video resolution, and they're immediately ready for playback. Motion studies are very easy using this method; you also get to see the relative lighting, colors, etc., without having to tie up your machine for higher resolution stuff. Then, once you've got it right, do the final version with your high-res stuff. The second group of people that could use this card are those that are working on game development using MPEG files. But, again, I think they really need to add audio/video interleave capability to really open this up. The third group would be those that are just getting into animation. Though the MARS is expensive, the cost would be quickly paid back with the experience it provides the user concerning movement, lighting, etc. Most new animators don't have access to video equipment, and don't realize quite what 30 FPS animation is all about. Admittedly, a PAR is better output, but many of the people in this group can't afford the additional cost, and could make better use of the time saved by putting it into more experience, which the MARS will allow them to obtain very quickly. And lastly; this thing is FUN! Granted, you're only working at 352×240, but on a regular TV set, it actually looks pretty good. And getting almost instant feedback on your animations is pretty stimulating and motivating. (Especially when doing these low-res aminations on a P90. <g>) It just blasts through them! The price is fairly steep at $1495; I feel they would sell substantially more of them if they sharply lowered the price. But like I said before, it will be worthwhile for *many*, but those that already have a PAR probably would want to put their money elsewhere, as they're generally more accomplished already, and don't need the experience of learning 30 FPS animation. We'll just have to see what the free market does with price pressure, etc. If you, or anyone else, has any more questions about the MARS system, feel free to drop me a line, and I'll answer as best I can. We haven't decided yet if we're going to sell them. (We're also a PAR dealer.) The MARS is a nice, fun little unit; it's just the price that has us questioning how many we'd sell. We'll just have to see who finds it the most cost effective solution to their particular needs. John
#151033From: Jure SpilerFeb 4, 1995 12:57 PM
Hello, although some others have replied, maybe I could add few lines <G> We received our MARS 2 months ago and are very happy with it. JUST WORKS AS DESCRIBED, very uncommon feature in computer industry <G>! Superb for amateur and semi professional job. Excellent video output (we use PAL in Europe), works with any video (VHS or S-VHS) recorder. Even professionals can benefit as they can preview before recording in the studio. Would like to see some extra software (music/video synchronisation, FLI to MPG converter). ANyway, superb product! Jure
#151075From: Scott LawrenceFeb 4, 1995 6:39 PM
Jure, Thanks for the info. I assume MARS has no capture capability, correct? Do you happen to know if Daewoo plans to add this in the future? (How's tech support?) -Scott
#152538From: Jure SpilerFeb 12, 1995 2:17 AM
Hello, TRUE, there is no capture in MARS. As they sell it, it is strictly MPEG video + audio player mainly for 3D-Studio users. Tech support? I have never needed one, but they do answer faxes or e-mail. Cheers, Jure (BASIC, the Lisp2C company)
#152583From: John SchmidtFeb 12, 1995 12:23 PM
Jure, >> Tech support? I have never needed one, but they do answer faxes or e-mail. At our local 3DS User Group meeting on Saturday A.M., we had a demo of the MARS unit scheduled. Well, in preparation, I thought I'd do a last minute test Friday, about 6:30 P.M.. Well, unknown to me at that time, I'd left the rendering resolution in 3DS at 320×200 instead of the MARS default, (352×240), which was causing the renderings to roll vertically on the screen. PANIC! So I called their southern California sales office, and was surprised to find someone there at that time of day. They said to wait by the phone, and they'd have someone get back to me. In less than ten minutes, a technician calling *FROM KOREA* returned my call, and we got it fixed up right away! Now that's support! This company really wants to make this product go; I've even heard they're discussing the price issue. Like I said before, it's a real good solution for many. Nothing beats it for fast, accurate pre-visualization. John BTW, it was very well accepted at the Users Group meeting.
#152767From: Angelo Guarino [DTI Inc]Feb 13, 1995 10:52 AM
John, >>MARS We are also considering carrying the MARS product. The version I had was pre-release and I had some problems demoing at our USG. I also currenly feel the product would sell much better at a < $1k price point. With the PAR and HDD near $2K … I think the position of the product would be very firm. I like it for my architect and engineering clients and also for my high-end clients that want "quick preview" capabilities and multiple stations. They are currently sending me the latest board for re-review. The board has alot of promise. I would really be interested in how it will interface with the new Animator Studio product. That product will really need some way of previewing the 24-bit 2D animations. Hopefully, AniSudio will have some RDPADI support. Ang, President Dynamic Technologies, An Autodesk Multimedia Dealer in MD
#152860From: John SchmidtFeb 13, 1995 2:54 PM
Angelo, >> I also currenly feel the product would sell much better at a < $1k price point. 'Our feelings also. How they sell in the next few months could have some effect on this. >> I would really be interested in how it will interface with the new Animator Studio product. That product will really need some way of previewing the 24-bit 2D animations. Hopefully, AniSudio will have some RDPADI support. How true! Especially with the MARS' ability for simultaneously outputting audio and video. But As long as Animator studio has the ability to output sequential 30 fps TGA's or JPG's, (hopefully), there'll still be a back door for using the MARS. What I *really* can't wait for is MPEG 2 to come upon the scene! Things will really start taking off then, though I suspect it's at least a year away. John
#152871From: Angelo Guarino [DTI Inc]Feb 13, 1995 4:02 PM
John, >> how it will interface with the new Animator Studio product.<< I remember dragging Joe Fantusi and Mark Gerhardt to the MARS booth at CAD Camp last summer .. and I think they were excited about the prospects. AniStudio will really hurt for a product that will give the user "pseudo" realtime feedback .. again .. at a list $ < 1k .. I think it would make sence for quite a few people. Even those with higher-end systems like the PAR and MAX could benefit for previews for customers. The only realtime system that come close is the Targa2k which has a feature that allows you to render at 320×240 and hardware scale the video during playback … kind's two systems in one. Ang
#152650From: Alexander KrutikovFeb 12, 1995 8:00 PM
We have plans about releasing MARS Capture Board later this year. It will utilize real-time JPEG compression and off-line software conversion to MPEG 1. Also it will have an optional Audio compression daughter-board which will utilize MPEG 1 layer II audio compression. Alexander Krutikov, Lead Programmer, Darim Vision Co., Taejeon, South Korea
#152997From: Scott LawrenceFeb 13, 1995 11:22 PM
Alexander, >>We have plans about releasing MARS Capture Board later this year. It will utilize real-time JPEG compression and off-line software conversion to MPEG 1. Also it will have an optional Audio compression daughter-board which will utilize MPEG 1 layer II audio compression.<< Thanks for the information. I thought this was worth repeating! Will this be an add-on to current MARS board or a completely new product that replaces it? -Scott Lawrence
#153245From: Alexander KrutikovFeb 15, 1995 12:32 AM
Scott, MARS with JPEG Capture board will be a set the following hardware components: 1) Current MARS hardware; 2) Motion JPEG realtime capturing board; 3) (optional) Audio MPEG layer II compression daughter-board Users of the current MARSes will be able to add capturing/compression capabilities to their system as a low-cost upgrade. Alexander.
#153379From: Scott LawrenceFeb 15, 1995 4:13 PM
Alexander, >>Users of the current MARSes will be able to add capturing/compression capabilities to their system as a low-cost upgrade.<< Any idea how soon this will be available? Also, why not PCI? Seems like everyone is headed in that direction. -Scott
#153491From: John SchmidtFeb 16, 1995 1:27 AM
Scott, >> Also, why not PCI? I'll give you my take on this. Running an MPEG file off the hard disk just doesn't require that kind of throughput, so making it available on ISA makes it accessible to everyone. Using PCI would be like putting 400 horsepower in a car that will never go faster than 50 mph. It's a lot of expense and complexity that has no real usefulness. 'Probably the same reason they don't make modems for PCI slots; they just can't make any use of the additional throughput. John
#153506From: Scott LawrenceFeb 16, 1995 3:20 AM
John, >>Using PCI would be like putting 400 horsepower in a car that will never go faster than 50 mph.<< Yes, but isn't it nice to know it's there? <g> Seriously, seems the plug & play capability of PCI alone makes it worthwhile…no? -Scott
#153552From: John SchmidtFeb 16, 1995 10:51 AM
Scott, >> Seriously, seems the plug & play capability of PCI alone makes it worthwhile…no? Maybe it could make a difference, but the way it works right now, it's already pretty much Plug and Play. The card has no jumpers; it automatically looks for an available position and configures itself, which you can override if it possibly makes a mistake. John
#153019From: James M. MurphyFeb 14, 1995 1:07 AM
Hi, Alexander, Pardon my jumping in here but I just wanted to say hello and let you know that I've just faxed in our Company information to Mr. Kim. I've got to tell you I'd love to find an excuse to visit Korea as I was stationed there in 67 & 68. I absolutly love the people and the culture. Although I worked out of Camp Casey in the Electronics Platoon I also moonlighted as an English instructor for the Little Tigers. <BG> Of course no-one knew about it at the time until we had an open house and a Korean Major-General spilled the beans….We were working with ASA. I felt very privlaged because I spent most of my time with the "real" population…as opposed to the "bar-crowd"…Even went to a traditional 3-day Korean Wedding. Well enough rambling..welcome to the Forum and Welcome to 3D Studio. James M. Murphy Autodesk Authorized Dealer Green Bay, Wisconsin USA