#Hard errors?
18 messages in this thread
Actually, we do care about Workbench. Copy is single threaded because
there's no better way for a new user to thrash (and, under V1.1) trash a
file system then allowing copies and deletes to happen at the same time.
Remember that there really is no firm indication of directory structure
from Workbench. So if a Workbench user launches a recursive copy, then a
delete of one of the files in the hash chain…
Workbench is a single application. Its not always desirable to put
multitasking within an application. Look at the early Textcraft, with its
seperate tasks to handle input, display, and scrolling. Multitasking should
be used judiciously within a program.
Now that I've said that; there are places in Workbench where use of
seperate tasks would do wonders. A task dedicated to refreshing the
windows, for instance.
Workbench is coming out of the ROMs for V1.4, to make room. We haven't
made the 512K decision yet (the one that forces A1000 owners to use roms
as well) so something had to give, and it turned out to be Workbench. Once
out of the ROMs, Workbench will be a bit freer to stretch a little, so to
speak, and can gain functions other than just bug fixes.
A handy tip: when using Workbench to duplicate drawers (or whatever), move
the thing being duplicated onto the backdrop window while duplicating.
This will speed the operation greatly, and cut way down on memory usage.
Ben: pretend I didn't say that stuff up there about 1.4, and just mentioned
the handy tip (grin)
Are you gonna fix the bug in INFO where INFO refuses to operate on a remote
icon? Project icons can be used to start programs from another directory,
with the annoyance that you cannot use INFO without building a dummy data
file for it first. Then you have to delete that file again so it doesn't
clog the slow directory search after you're done with info.
Yes, I fixed the INFO thing. It was intended to do that, btw. I broke its
testing mechanism. It wanted a lock, in case you play with the protection
bits.
Workbench wish list:
How about a selection, either a menu toggle or a PREFERENCES setting to
create a window with all the workbench stuff in it. There are very many
programs that take over the entire bench screen, but get along well with
WINDOWS on the workbench screen. Examples are PREFERENCES or ATERM.
For the advanced user, of course. That would work for the experienced user.
andy
Andy–
Since I sorta started this long thread, I would like to return to my
original question: what are the reasons why it is possible to eject a disk
while it is being written to? It would seem to me that if we do a
cost/benefit analysis, far more data is lost from folks ejecting disks
accidentally than from their not being able to abort disk initializations.
Is it the cost of implementing this protection in the hardware or software
considerations that make the current situation. I absolutely do not buy the
"multitasking" argument as a reason for allowing a disk to be written to and
ejected at the same nanosecond.
// Jim
Jim,
The point is not that you are able to eject the disk at the same nanosecond
it is being written to that makes the multitasking argument, but the fact
that it is a software considereation. I _should_ be able to pull a disk that
is between actual writes, even though a file is in the process of being
written to.
If ever CBM offers drives with only software eject, i certainly won't buy
them, nor will anyone else who is past the beginner stage.
Regards, Larry.
Larry-
I don't think I am talking about software ejects. Maybe I am though. What I
had in mind was something within the disk (having nothing to do with the
computer) which would prevent a disk from being ejected while it is being
written to. Of course, the drive would have to _know_ it was writing to a
disk, so in that sense I guess software is involved.
BTW–I don't see this as a beginner/expert thing at all. Anyone can forget
to look at a light.
// Jim
Ahh… but the mark of a beginner is that he does forget… the non-beginner
doesn't. It is because it's so important that the learning separates them.
Regards, Larry.
I don't accept that absolutely; the mark of a beginner is that he forgets
MORE. I take it you are careful never to go near your Amiga when you're
tired; you make sure you have your TV and radio off (probably a good idea to
unplug your phone too); and you have no other distractions to make sure you
absolutely will not absent-mindedly do something you shouldn't?! My point
there is that I don't believe anyone ever is 100% perfect about doing any
reasonably involved task over an extended period of time.
It could be argued that software ejects on a multi-tasking system are tacky
(I'm not absolutely convinced, but I won't try to argue); however I fail to
see any good argument against software locking drives against ejection
(assuming fail-safes ala paper-clipping). There are cases that not being able
to get at a disk FAST would cause problems, just as wearing seat-belts can
cause injuries. It's just that it seems to me that the trade off works the
other way (there's always the Vulcan Nerve Pinch and the switch on my power
bar).
Another point – we all want increased sales of the Amiga. On that basis we
can't argue against putting them where lots of novices can get at them
(schools, universities, a great many offices, etc.). Unless you want one
Amiga for idiots and one Amiga for non-idiots consideration should be given
to a compromise between driving experienced users up that wall with excessive
hand-holding and letting naive users destroy a few dozen disks before they
get procedures straight. While I'd love to tell many of our customers what I
think of their mentality for some of the things they do, the fact that people
screw up and expect other people to unscrew up their problems is a fact of
life.
Douglas,
The one thing I _don't_ do any more, tired or not, is pull my disks out or
reset the machine early.
Regards, Larry.
Larry–
Since this is one area where I do not want to learn by experience, what is
this "resetting the machine early" I am hearing about.
BTW, I agree with what Douglas Martin said, but this thread is verging on
religion, I think. Making Amigas safe is like making anything safe: a
distasteful and occasionally necessary thing.
// Jim
Douglas,
NO user should be turned loose on any computer until they have at
least rudimentary training…about the first thing that a teacher should tell
a student looking at a computer is to never turn the computer off or take a
disk out of a drive or reset the computer while the disk light is on.
This certainly isn't Amiga specific….try using any computer while
it's writing to a disk and shut it off…bye bye disk.
Don
There are/were at least 3 reasons; depending on who you are, one of the
reasons may be the one that convinced you…
1) Cost 2) Multitasking arguments (no need to repeat them again) 3) dislike
of the way it worked on a Mac, trying to use the
compiler available way back then (128K Mac as well) 4) religious feelings
that the user should be in control at all times 5) extensive use of the
paper-clip when doing 3) above
I once had the task on attempting to trash a disk using the standard programs
on Workbench, and pulling the disk out at odd intervals, while writing, etc.
Aside from seeing the "You Must Replace…" requester, and spending a lot of
time revalidating, I didn't lose many disks that day.
Do you guys think its really that common ? My informal polls of new users
don't indicate that many people really trash many disks that way.
andy
Andy,
Using the original OS (1.0) where you got 2 distinct disk writes with
the LED going out between them…then quite a few folks did lose disks by
re-setting the machine too soon. I lost one that way myself, but only 1
because I have a tendency to learn from my mistakes.
With the current OS, I don't believe it's a problem any more as the
LED stays on all the time between the 2 writes and the fact that I haven't
near the volumn of messages about trashing disks that we saw back in the 1.0
days tells me that 'cured' alot of folks too quick on the reset keys.
Don
Don-
From Workbench after a RENAME there is a noticeable delay and one could
easily, I imagine, pull a disk just as the light decides to come on.
// Jim
I think I have trashed three disks that way. The first was from dnot
knowing, the next two were the sort of things where the nanosecond you do
something you regret it. Two that I know of have been trashed at the TV
studio at work. Let's see, that makes five…
It may not be worth changing any hardware over, I guess.
Why *not* fly in an airplane with an ordinary door, eh?
// Jim
All by the 'pulling out too soon' method ? Do you remember the error (key
already set, key already free, key out of range, or just not a DOS disk) ?
andy