Looking for LASER advice
25 messages in this thread
I am looking into buying a laser printer. I am looking for a
comparison between HPIIP, Okidata 400/800 and Panasonic 4420. Has anyone
had experience with any or all of the above? The Panasonic model appears
to have the best price/performance ratio.
I am looking for any and all input. Thanks, Norm
Norm –
If your looking for a Laser for you Amiga – you should consider only
those that have PostScript built in (or available vie cartrige). All the
others don't even compete without PostScript.
I don't know if those models that you mentioned do or do not have PS,
but if they don't, forget them. Of course this is only MHO, but I bet
you'll be sorry if you get one that doesn't. Of course you will pay more
for those that have PS, but then it just the price of truely better output.
The price difference for PS laser has come way down over the last couple of
months and you can get a PS laser now for somewhere in the ballpark of
$1500 to $1800.
NEC makes a nice line of PS lasers, I have (and sell) the NEC
Silentwriter 2 – model 90. A 6ppm laser, 2megs of Ram, Genuine Adobe PS
and Laserjet IIp compatibility and has a street price of around $1750.
Another good one is the Texas Inst. PS35 – I don't have any spec. on it,
but it should street price out at around $1900. There are others too. I
have heard that Apple just lowered their prices on their Lasers.
My whole point here Norm, is if you get a laser that is not capable of
PostScript then you are really just getting a fancy preference printer. The
blacks will be blacker than any Dot Matrix printer you can buy, but the
images will still be jaggie and you with still be using bitmapped or
structured fonts and you are only slightly better off then 24 wire DM
printers. In other words, don't buy a laser until you can afford the
Postscript!
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
Roy,
Thank you for the info. I don't feel I need POSTSCRIPT output. I use
GOLD DISK Professional Page 2.0 and with the Compugraphic fonts I can get
PS quality output. I am just looking for the best price/options HP
compatible laser. Thanks Again, Norm
Norm… Roy is right. I use PageStream which does a remarkably good job of
printing to non-postscript printers (including my HP LJ II compatible) and
I STILL end up sending all of my important stuff out to be printed on a
postscript laser or linotronic.
If you don't want to spend the money on postscript now, than make sure you
get a laser that is relatively easy (and inexpensive) to up grade to
postscript in the future.
The TI Microlaser (non-postscript) can be upgraded by adding a couple megs
of memory and a new controller board.
The HP laserjet series II is great, and can be upgraded to PS by adding a 2
meg memory board ($189 mailorder) and a PS cartridge (another $249
mailorder). But HP dolesn't sell series II's anymore.
Epson has a new model out (7500?) taht can be upgraded and I think it sells
in its non-ps mode for under $1000. But I don't know much about it.
I have the LJIIP. No complaints – runs great, is upgradabel via crtrdg to
Post Script, small footprint with optional lower cassette (250 sheet) that
I would advise getting. Does envelopes and transparencies as well as label
sheets. The only drawback in my mind is its not color ;^}
wmc
Where did you get and how much did you pay for the Lower Cassette for your
HPIIP?
Ron, I got the lower cassette at the CBM dealer (who has since gone under)
where I bought the printer for $129 at the time of the LaserJet IIPs first
appearence. However, a few months ago HP had a deal that if you bought the
printer they would throw in the cassette free. I don't know if that is
still on or not. Also if you upgade memory use Pacific Page instead of HP
– less money, more expandability.
wmc
Wayne,
I have been kind of steering towards that model. My only hesitation is
the fact that the Panasonic 4420 has 8ppm output vs 4ppm for HPIIp. Thanks,
Norm
Norm,
If you are going to be printing enough that 8 ppm vs 4 ppm is an important
buy point you may want to consider a LaserJet III. Their prices are down
around $1500 lately and I understand they support scaleable fonts directly
in the printer.
wmc
Wayne,
It's not that I print a lot but if I can get a Pansonic that prints
8ppm for the same price as a HPIIp that prints 4ppm the Panasonic would
appear to be the better deal.
I agree that the new HPIII is a nice printer, but no Amiga software
that I know of supports the scaleable fonts feature of the printer. I just
read an article in the March BYTE magazine about a new chipset that will
allow scaleable fonts in lowend printers by this Summer. Norm
Norm –
I totally disagree with Roy. You do not need PostScript to have good
quality output. 300 dpi is 300 dpi, PostScript or not. It's always nice
to have the option to upgrade to PostScript, of course.
I do the purchasing and evaluating of PC equipment for my company, and I
can wholehartedly recommend HP equipment. First of all, everybody's got a
driver for it, you can add Postscript if you want, and the new models (III,
IIID, and IIIsi) come with CompuGraphic Scalable font technology built in.
Which means fonts anywhere from 4 points to over 100 points. (Not available
on the IIP or IID)
Hewlett Packard equipment is also very reliable and easy to maintenance
(all you have to change is a single cartridge every 4,000 sheets), and you
won't ever have to worry about availability of toner cartridges, etc.
All of the Desktop Publishing programs for the Amiga, as well as some of
the Word-Processing programs have their own drivers, so you don't have to
mess with the font limitations of the preferences drivers. The only time
you really have to worry about the jaggies is when you print a
screen-bitmapped image, such as from a non-structured paint program or when
you use Amiga bitmap fonts. Postscript doesn't help those either.
You can always add PostScript later, unless you're going to be using a
service bureau for 1200+ dpi typesetting on a postscript device, it doesn't
make sense anymore to buy PostScript. (and there, you're only using it for
the accuracy of the proof image)
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
I would endorse what Jane says … the quality of output comes from the
laser printer, and not from the fact that it has PostScript.
However, PostScript can add significantly to the versatility of a printer
and, when used with PageStream or Professional Page, the output will appear
very much faster than if you had used the Amiga to generate the page image.
Also, programming in PostScript is fun.
Mike (a recent purchaser of LJIII and HP/Adobe PS cartridge, and a total
convert to Hewlett Packard's resolution enhancement technology)
Jane,
I tend to agree with you. I use PPage 2.0 and with the Compugraphic
font technology the output is good or better than PostScript. I just am
looking for a good HP compatible that may give more performance/price than
the HP models do. Thanks, Norm
Norm,
I doubt you'll really be able to find better price/performance than you
do in HP's own equipment. You can get an HPIII for around 1600 if you go
to a good HP dealer, and you can find the IIP for under $900. IMHO, it's
worth it to pay the extra $100 for a real HP than have to suffer under
incompatibilities of so-called compatibles.
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
Jane,
The price difference appears to be more than $100. I agree that HP
equipment is well built but I have also had good luck with Panasonic
printers. Although, the Panasonic's were dot matrix, 24pin, not lasers.
Norm
Norm,
I've also heard some good things about Panasonic's laser, I think their
cartridges are compatible with HP. That's one of the hidden costs of
Lasers, their cartridges/drum kits/etc. With an Okidata laser, there's a
LOT of clip-together parts, and things get messy after a while. With an
HP, it's just one part–toner and laser together, and the quality doesn't
get bad because of a leaky toner tray, or a spring that's not seated
correctly, etc. etc.
If I were you, and as determined not to buy an HP, I'd go for another
name brand that has been building laser printers for a while, and
preferably, can use HP toner carts, because you never have to worry about
availability.
Also, don't base the pricing of HP's on just one dealer, call around. In
Minneapolis, there's a dealer that beats out all the other HP dealers every
time. Their current price for a Deskjet 500(inkjet) is $455, while the
lowest I've seen anybody else go is $487.
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
Jane –
I did say that if the Laser as options to upgrade to PostScript (with
cartridge) than it was a good way to go.
There are some laser out there that don't have cartridge ports or don't
have the ablity to take 3rd party cartridges (like Pacific's). And I was
only trying to point out that with the lowering of prices lately on PS
lasers, why not get the best of both worlds and have both the HP standard
and PS.
I really don't want to start and argument here, but I have seen user buy
HP compatables and be unhappy with the results. They now wish that they
had PostScript. True the laser world is changing rapidly – what with
scalable font technology gaining a wider range of acceptance. It is hard
to keep up with things (Course in this business, that is always the case).
Both you and another message mentioned that PS was nice to have (or
upgrade to.) You also said. "The only time you really have to worry about
the jaggies is when you print a screen-bitmapped image, such as from a
non-structured paint program or when you use Amiga bitmap fonts. Postscript
doesn't help those either."
I disagree – I bring Bit-mapps into PPage all the time and they look
great on my NEC Ps. The postscript does print the pic much cleaner and
with less jaggies that if I switched that print over to Hp emulation and
print the same page. And why use Amgia bitmap fonts when you can us PS
fonts? There are alot more of those are than CG fonts.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
Jane,
Completely disagree about PostScript. 300 dpi IS 300 dpi but if I want a
big black box, I want PS to say make a big black box instead of sending
data for all those dots.
Also, I'm told that the HP prefs driver doesn't work properly, not even the
new one.
The scalable fonts in the III's might as well not be there until software
knows how to talk to it. I note that the HP III driver for Ventura
Publisher costs $50!
You're absolutely right about the quality of HP products, of course.
ProPage does NOT have its own drivers (unless that's been added in 2.0).
> You can always add PostScript later.
Whoa! Some lasers won't let you add PS ever! Even differences between HP's
means a different cart is required. Just because a laser speaks PCL doesn't
mean it's PS-upgradeable.
For my money, PS is worth whatever you pay for it. If you're serious about
making good pages, I think the PS printer is almost more important than the
computer! After all, I can get PS output from the C64.
Malcolm
Malcom,
> Whoa! Some lasers won't let you add PS ever! … Just because a laser >
speaks PCL doesn't mean it's PS upgradeable.
I'm not recommending all PCL-compatible lasers, just HP's. If a laser
doesn't have an option for adding PostScript at a reasonable price, then I
wouldn't recommend it under any circumstances, just like I wouldn't
recommend a computer without any slots or ports for expansion.
Did I say ProPage has its own drivers? I don't know ProPage, just
PageStream, and PageStream does install it's own drivers, so does
WordPerfect. I assumed that to make use of the CompuGraphic fonts, ProPage
had to bypass the preferences drivers.
>> I'm told that the HP prefs driver doesn't work properly
Can anyone out there who uses HP's verify this? My experience with HP's
comes from using them at work with IBM compatibles, not on the Amiga. I
have an HP Deskjet 500 for my Amiga, but that's comparing peanuts to
oranges.
>> I note that the HP III driver for Ventura Publisher costs $50!
Gee, and Ventura Publisher costs $795! So what? Everything for an IBM
compatible costs a lot. Ventura Publisher is not available for the Amiga.
The biggest problem I have with you folks pushing PostScript, is it sounds
like you're saying, "Go ahead, buy Blue-Burger's $700.00
PostScript-compatible laser. If its got PostScript, its got to be good."
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
Alright – Malcolm – I knew you'd back me up here!
Thanks for comin' by this thread, Malcolm. I'm havin' a hard time
convincin' these folk, that if you got the money (And if an HPIII is $1600
bucks while a NEC model 90 – PS is only $1700-$1800, I'd go PS for those
kind of differences.) – Then GO PostScript.
For DTP work it does beat out HP's page discription language.
Anyway – I forgot got to mention the problems with HP's pref. printer
drivers. And the fact that with any non-PS laser, one will have to use
preference devices to print the page.
You also make a good point about the importance of the PS language. Or
should I say the superiority of Post Script as a page discription language
over PCL. (I think that's what they call the HP standard Language). Fonts
are NOT the only part of any DTP project. Lines, boxes, circles also need
to be compared.
The time it takes for the language to discribe the page is much
different than the reported ppm to print said page. Even if the laser is
rated to print 4 Page Per Minute (or 6ppm or 8ppm), that doesn't mean how
fast the laser will process the page – correct. Postscript is better at
defining the objects on the page and is faster. – Correct.
I admit that I am new to PostScripting, but I also know that I have
people that are not happy with their HP compatibles- as far as DTP projects
go. Sure if you are going to be doing a lot of Business Letters, and all
you want is a good laser to print those letters from your non-postscript
compatible wordprocessor – Then go ahead get an HP laser, but if you are
buying a laser to do DTP work – THEN GET A POSTSCRIPT.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
Roy,
You keep pointing out people who are not happy with their HP
compatibles. I'd like to point out that I don't recommend anyone buy a
compatible. I think they should buy an HP. I've never met anyone who is
disappointed in their HP.
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
Jane –
Yes, true blue HP's are probably the way to go. but what I am also
saying is;
For the price of a True Blue HP – why not get one that is PostScript
also.
I feel that for DTP work (ie not just letters from a Wordprocessor, like
standard office needs) Postscript is a better page discription language.
HP's PCL is not the same. And CG fonts are not the same as PS fonts.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
Norm:
I've got the OKI 400. It's only a 4PPM printer. Kinda slow these days, but
since it's still lots faster than my old 160 CPS 8 pin printer, I don't
mind it a bit. The output looks fine, and it's still the cheapest laser
(actually it has an LED print element) printer I could find. I got it for
$642 including shipping. It has HPLJII emulation, but I thought I read
that there's a Postscript software emulator for preferences printers.
(haven't looked to deep yet).
A recent review I read in PC Magazine (Politically Correct Magazine?)
didn't give it very high marks, although they didn't refer to the new lower
price. I believe they liked the HPIIP and the Panasonic.
Paul
Paul,
Thanks for the honest answer. I will steer away from the Okidata
printers. Norm