3/4" VTR's
28 messages in this thread
Howdy Video Fiends,a couple of quick questions on 3/4" VTRs 1-Whats the
Difference bettween a Umatic and a MII machine? 2-Do either umatic or MII
allow Stereo Audio Dubbing WITHOUT affecting the Video portion? and lastly
What is the Rez of Umatic and MII?And is it worth the extra expense of
going 3/4" compared to using SVHS or Hi8? My Master will be first
generation with Music dubbed in later for Animation Tapes so Multi
Generation differences mean little to me at the moment.I'll be using my
Master to go to the Duplicator for distribution and they pretty much all
Support Hi8 and SVHS as well as the upper end like 3/4" and 1" Thanx for
the help
Here's the short story.
One-inch can record the entire composite signal by using lots of tape (both
in terms of width and speed).
The smaller formats can't do that, so they use various ways of shoehorning
the signal onto the tape. U-Matic, VHS and SVHS all use the same system:
they separate B&W detail information from the color information, convert
the color information to a much lower frequency (at a horrible cost in
terms of color detailing), remix the signals and record them to tape.
Coming back off the tape, the signal is resplit, the color data is
converted back up in frequency, it's recombined and sent on its way. The
formats differ in terms of how much damage is done to the signal in the
process, and since they clobber the signal in different ways, there's some
argument as to whether U-Matic or SVHS is better; VHS is the clear loser.
Betacam, Beta-SP and MII record the signal differently, by splitting it
into luminance and two color-difference signals which are kept separate
throughout the recording process. The color is never downconverted in
frequency, hence, the atrocious artifacts you see in U-Matic, SVHS and VHS
do not occur. These machines are still not quite up to par with one-inch,
but generally only an engineer would notice the difference on the screen.
Then you get into digital formats — D1, D2 and D3, which record the signal
as digital data (so theoretically you can have an infinite number of
lossless generations), but by then we're probably beyond a rational price
for what you're attempting.
Hope this helps.
Pete
Thanx for the info,I think I'll stick with SVHS tho,I'm currently using a 8
mm(standard 8 mm) Sony VTR and have had only 1 problem,not being able to
dub audio in without effecting the Video due to 8mm's small size
s
Peter,
The whole business of audio and video dubbing is another issue which maybe
I can shed some light on too.
UMatic records audio in two narrow tracks down the edge of the tape, with
about the same fidelity (more-or-less) as a tape cassette (e.g., not
great). That's the only way it can record audio.
VHS and SVHS also use the same method (and since the tracks are narrower
and the tape moves slower than in UMatic, the quality is much worse). But
these two formats also provide a second method — a pair of audio hi-fi
channels recorded on the same track as the video information. These hi-fi
channels actually sound quite good, but since they're on the video track
you can't dub audio and video separately — at least as far as the hi-fi
tracks go. You're stuck with the extremely lo-fi linear tracks. In
addition, most consumer and low-level industrial machines provide two hi-fi
tracks, but only a single audio-dub-capable linear track.
The same thing, BTW, is true of the Beta-SP format, which has hi-fi
channels encoded into the chrominance tracks on the tape, thus permanently
wedding them to the video signal. The advantage with Beta is that the tape
moves much faster, so the quality of the linear tracks is much better.
Pete
Thanx for the info on Audio Dubbing Bro,The Hitachi VLS I'm looking at has
2 HI Fi and 2 linear tracks
Yep, I've played with that unit & like it a lot. There ARE a couple of
things worth knowing about it, though. It does have a built-in TBC;
however there are no proc-amp controls (e.g., you can't adjust gain,
pedestal, chroma level, etc.). Also, the edit control protocol is
nonstandard. I'm not sure what edit controllers, other than Hitachi's, it
will work with. I know it doesn't use the Sony protocol, so it won't
interface with the same edit controllers that control Betacam decks. Worth
a question or two before purchasing, depending on your application.
Pete
Thanx for the info on the Hitachi VLS 100 dude,maybe I'll be better off
going with a non TBCed machine and picking up an external TBC
How does Hi8 mode do the video and audio recording?
Is video broken down like SVHS?
i know there are several different audio methods, AFM & PCM. Can you shed
some light on these?
Thanks,
Jerry
Hi-8 does use the same "color-under" scheme as the other small formats,
albeit with a somewhat higher chroma frequency than the others (this would
suggest the possibility of higher chroma detailing).
I've not used 8mm or Hi-8 myself; I've just looked at the specs.
Unfortunately, that was long enough ago that I don't recall offhand what
the audio tracks are; so I'll have to leave that to someone else.
If you have no luck here, try Section 2 of the Broadcast Professionals
Forum (GO BPFORUM).
Hi8 and standard 8mm both use PCM sound if I'm not mistaken Hi8 machines
allow audio dubbing without effecting video(some do anyway)
Peter:
M-II is a 1/2" component format cassette. The Manufacturer (Panasonic)
claims quality maintained up to 9 generations and vastly superior quality
to the color under 3/4" U-matic SP systems. It features an 8-bit built in
TBC and elimination of the subcarrier crawl associated with 3/4" formats.
It has two audio tracks, as well as separate control and time code tracks.
There is full-bandwidth 4.2 Mhz at -3db.
M-II is available in field-recorder (dockable), portable, as well as studio
recorders, players and an editor (the AU-65).
Compared to S-VHS (which, by the way is what I have in my edit suite), it
IS vastly superior, but of course cost much more.
Depending upon your budget, you may wish to aquire on S-VHS, then edit on
either S-VHS (AG-7750) or the M-II editor, which is a common arrangement.
Good luck!
Thanx for the info on MII.To Tell the Truth I'll probably end up using a
SVHS or Hi8 machine but I do like to see what alternatives offer. My Buddy
has a Ag 7750 and it is Dynamite.BTW what is the approx price of the
Panasonic AU-65?I will be Studio bound only since my main use is animation
to later be sent to the Duplicator for Distribution.What are yer thoughts
if any on the Hitachi VLS 100 SVHS mach tbc? with buy Line Noise!!!!!
Peter, my only PERSONAL experience in my studio is with the 7750 (I have 2
of 'em). I'm not really sure about the cost of the M-II editor, but I
think it's around $9,000. Have had no experience with the Hitachi piece.
I DO however, have friends at a local TV station that use the M-II
exclusively for editing. I've used their stuff on occasion, because they
have an Abecus effects machine ($40,000+) which does some pretty great
things that my toaster would take forever to simulate.
Thanx for the info on the MII Deck from Panasonic,I think I'll stick to
SVHS for now or maybe a Umatic machine
Bob, sorry to butt. How's the quality of MII compared to Beta SP and
what kind of editing protocal does MII use? I'll be needing something
that will stand up pretty well in multiple generations.
Erik, sorry to butt, I can give you a little info on your question
regarding MII. Depending on who you talk to (Sony reps or Panasonic)
the differences in perfotmance between BetaSP and MII are neglegable.
Edit protocols are stanfdard on both formats. In fact, my JVC KRM820
MII edit deck can emulate a BVW series Beta machine with respect to
edit control via the serial port. The main difference between BetaSP
and MII seems to be the price, BetaSP is about 75-100% MORE
expensive. MII got a bad rap a couple of years ago when first
introduced because of tape shedding. This was the fault of the tape
manufacturer, now long since cured. Older machines still have tape
handling problems, especially the portable decks, but overall if you
are looking for the quality of BetacamSP on a budget, MII is worth a
close look.
Someone else butting…what is the going price for MII decks? Basically, I
guess that one would need a decent source deck, and a single frame capable
record deck. Is Panasonic the only MII manufacturer? What kind of signal
does MII take/output?
MII will take either a composite video signal or a component video
scheme similar to Beta. One thing to be aware of is that the
component signal is NOT identical to the Beta signal, and therefore
the machines are NOT plug-compatible.
This would only be a problem if you intended to dub directly between
an MII and a beta deck in component mode. You would need a
transcoder to complete the connection.
Pete–
Thanks for the reply.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan, as you will see in Pete's posting, the MII component format
is not "plug" compatible with BetaSP, but it can be transcoded in R-Y
B-Y mode thru most current Bcast level TBCs. A field mod can also be
done to make it "plug" compatible at the output/input stage
(component only) but generally that type of mod is only done in dupe
houses if at all, most rely on transcode TBCs. As far as cost &
manufacturers; JVC just stopped shipping their nameplated MII product
into the US, but Panasonic is still going strong. IF you shop
carefully you can pick up a used or "B" stock MII editor for under
10k. Compared to nearly twice the price of same vintage BetaSP
editors. I am not bashing BetaSP, just trying to let you know there
are alternatives. There are many who prefer Sony's reputation for
service and reliability over Panasonic's, it's something you should
look closely at before "leaping". I have 3/4SP A/B roll via Toaster
into an MII edit recorder (All JVC stuff) and have been quite
satisfied with the results, but then again I didn't have the bucks to
go BetaSP (would have if I could have). I recognize your name from
the Newtek/Amiga forums, if you are planning to use Toaster as your
switcher or to render single frames, bear in mind that you will be
coming out of Taoster in COMPOSITE mode, either MII or BetaSP as a
source in that instance is a bit of a waste, as a record medium
however they would yield very good results.
I have access to an old Sony 3/4" recorder. Please compare the quality of
this format to the use of say a Panasonice AG-1960 as far as repro-quality.
Ie.. should I orig on 3/4 and edit to S-VHS, or viceversa thanks, Brian
Brian, I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but here goes. If
your 3/4 machine is more than say 5 years old it probably would have specs
that put it roughly comparable to standard VHS (about 230 lines of color
resolution). Later vintages would sometimes spec out at about 260. "S"
output is rated at up to 430 lines when used in Y/C mode, composite output
is still no better than standard VHS. The wideband mod that I have referred
to in previous postings will add about another 100 lines of resolution
(Composite color) to whatever your 3/4 deck starts from. I usually do my
field aquisition with 3/4SP, but lately I have been using "S"-VHS-C with
good results, depending on the lighting conditions. I ALWAYS dub (Thru a
transcode TBC) my master footage to work footage (3/4SP) then edit to MII.
On the whole, I can't really say that I see much difference in the formats
once the footage is edited and viewed side by side, except that there are
definite color artifacts (certain colors of orange and red) in the "S"
domain, that I don't see in 3/4SP. I guess it all depends on whether or not
you are shooting traffic cones or squad cars.
Frank
Frank–
You probably remember my name because you are running an 8 meg card that I
sold you…hope that you are still happy with it…
Thanks for the information; one last question…are all MII decks frame
compatible/RS-422? Oh yeah, what do you mean by "B" stock? Last years'
model?
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan, the 8meg board is still chugging away just fine in my second
Amiga (used downstream from my Toaster system). Regarding 422 & MII, I
don't know if ALL the MIIs ever made are compatible, but I haven't yet come
across any that don't have the 422 connector. "B" stock is anything that
has been opened and displayed or demonstrated, sometimes it's just
discontinued models. If the boxes were ever opened, these units cannot be
sold as "new" but usually come with full factory warranty. Occasionally
there's a cosmetic ding on the outside, but all units have to go through
factory check out to qualify for warranty. Most dealers will buy "B" stock
from the factory after a large show like NAB, or from other dealer stock
when there is a bancruptcy. Us common folk can sometimes find out about "B"
stock from factory reps or as in my case, from someone who deals
exclusively with TV stations. I was very fortunate in getting my MII deck
(JVC KRM820) for about half off retail, and the thing was mint! If you are
shopping with one of the bigger pro outlets like Midwest supply you can
certainly ask if there is anything available in "B" stock and they might
send you a current list, but usually because of the "one-of-a-kind" nature
of these items, they tend to go fast. Good luck.
Frank
Panasonics M II lists 14,500, JVC's is 12,500. They take composite, S-VHS
and component both in and out. Panasonic has a lease to own option going
on for M II at the moment.
wmc
could ya post a ph # for panasonic's Lease to own dept?Thanx
Peter, I don't know where you live, but for my area it would be Victoria
Chaffe, district sales manager, western region at 714-373-7529.
wmc
thanx for the MII info BTW I'm in NY