#Atari's Underhandedness
16 messages in this thread
For the past year and few months, we who have decided on the Amiga as the
computer of our choice, have been subjected to many abuses from the Atari
community. A slew of misinformation spreading; false and ridiculously false
accusations about the fate of this machine and CBM; perposterous denounciations
about the relative merits of the Amy as compared with the ST's; the propagation
of rumors – usually bits of information taken out of context; or the
intermixture of bits of truth and half-truths. I think the most frightening
thing is that Atari itself manages to instigate this negative 'campagne
effort', whether through well calculated phrasing of their announcements, or
talks they give in magazine interviews, or the more latent emotionalism they
inspire in their consumer/developer community. By the way, has anyone ever seen
a non-fanatic Atari owner – excluding developers? I've seen a cross section of
at least 10 Atari communities who, quite frankly seemed brainwashed that the ST
is the most superior machine: they all seem to be of 1 mind, consistent with
articles that might give praise to their 16 bitter, and are devoid of
rationalization beyond that which is produced by a popular magazine article or
by the 'ALMIGHTY ANNOUNCEMENT' given by the Tramiels' themselves.
The problem with all this is that its doing real harm to the Amiga
community.
(continued……)
People come to hear about the design and versatility of the Amy, but should
they have the fateful destiny to come in contact with a squadron of Atarians
(they many times travel in packs), then they become subject of the danger of
becoming literally brainwashed with irrational reasonings given by these
people. Quite frankly, I'm all for anyone intent on making an investment into a
commodity, to seek out information on all the options that are available to
them, and from this, make the choice that best suits their needs. However
Atarians are an extraordinary case, much reminiscent of the old story of the
'Animal Farm'. Though not every facet of their thinking is analagous to the
situations in this novel, the repeated chantings of 'Power without the price',
'Power without the price', 'Power without the price'……. and the immediate
rewards and sense of justice given by the Atarians is something very much to
scare you as it so very much does in this book. The fact is that, like in the
novel, the Atarians announce some very 'fair' ambitions and promises and
denounces any system giving you something otherwise. They chant policies and
the immediate consequences of these policies, getting their community in an
emotional high, leading them to believe in inaccurate truths, and removing from
them the want or the challenge to rationalize things differently. Though I may
not go on to say that the old faithful horse will be shot and profits will be
obtained from its meat, or the ordinary members of this community look
impotently into their masters window seeing them slurping on wine and chomping
on the finest meat. Or that they will be held in the invisible shackles of this
powerful pschology…… but then again I wouldn't be suprised.
(continued……)
So I have likened the Atari community with something like a communist
regime – some might think its a bit extreme, but I challenge anyone to tell me
that my comparisons are inaccurate. I'm not saying that it is such a regime,
but rather it propagates an evironment reminiscent of such. Why have I come to
this position? I don't usually point fingers at people, and I usually take
blows from oppositions in patience hoping that their pratice will subside. This
however has not been the case with these Atarians, and I don't think I, or we
should take this abuse much longer. My stand on the issue on whether the ST or
the Amy is a superior technology will yield a flat out yae for the Amy and nay
for the ST; which of either of the machines is a sensible investment for a
propective buyer? -will get a reply of: you have to make an assessment of your
own needs and come to that conclusion yourself – however, if you are looking
into a short term investment and don't necessarily need the maximum power you
can get, then my advice would be that the ST might very well be your choice,
however, if you are looking into a long term investment and would like a very
powerful and expandable machine, the Amy is your choice yielding, usually with
the aid of multitasking, 1x, 2x, 3x and even more productive output over the
ST.
In conclusion I think we should stop dilly dallying with the Atari
community, we should firmly take a stand on our own assessments of the Amy, and
not wavering for any or every persuasive 'logic' these oponents of ours might
present. In short, be firm and not stand for any 'hogwash' that may be shoved
in our face. I'm by no means saying we short resort to the tactics they use,
heaven forbid, it's just time that we put our foot down – something like what
parents do.
Patmore, it's been my experience in life that the people who SHOUT the loudest
usually have the least to shout about.
I don't think the answer is to try and offset each half-truth as that would be
mostly impossible and probably fall on deaf ears anyway. Rather, Commodore
itself needs to promote the Amiga in the best possible ways, continue to
support it and developers in every way that they can – and everyone involved
should just do the best they can to use the Amiga to its full potential.
Don't let 'em get under your skin – it's a waste of time and energy.
Happy New Year…Marlene
Exactly, I haven't seen one ad for th Amiga paid for by CBM. Another problem is
price. I once heard someone say "…the ST is obviously inferior,but $200 is a
lot to the average shmuck on the street…". And,I hate to say it,but I think
I'm the average "shmuck on the street". $200 is a lot to someone who hasn't
money to burn. There it is.
Alex
Alex,
Althou sporatic, I have seen several ads for the Amiga paid for by CBM.
Don
Alex, I've seen occassional ads from CBM. As to price – it is in the eyes of
the purchaser. All depends on how much you have to spend or want to spend and
what you perceive as the value of the product for the money. I don't really
think that there is a tremendous difference in price between the Amiga and ST
Marlene
Pat,
I think you are being way to extreme in your comments about the Atari
community. They are really little, if any, different than most Mac owners,
Amiga owners, IBM (the true blue bloods) owners, C64 owners, etc. Each is
firmly convinced that they are the only "enlightened" ones since they bought
the correct machine. Now some groups are more vocal than others
(interestingly, there seems to be some coorelation between price and vocalness,
the cheaper machine owners being more vocal than the more expensive (usually))
but all in all they are basicly the same.
In a way it's kind of fun to watch from the side (except that I rarely
do that, I tend to try and inform people of the "facts" as opposed to their
beliefs (which proves I'm a bigger fool than I wish I was)) since the different
groups have differing approaches. Mac owners "know" they are right, and that
if they just show every one else the will be converted. Thus they rarely
attack other machines, instead they point to the great achievenments of the
Mac. Atari owners tend to be more agressive. They go out and "prove" they
bought the machine with the best hardware. (Unfortunately, they , like most
other owners, don't have the "real" truth. It is bent in their favor (just
like Amiga people bend it in their favor).) Amiga owners are defensive (I
guess making up for the bad rep CBM once had for quality, etc.) and seem to
spend more time than the others worrying about what is said about them and less
time attacking the others.
Like I said, it is kinda interesting to sit back and watch. And wonder
why the different groups act the way the do. (One reason may be age, the
cheaper machines tend to be bought by thoswho are younger.)
I'd recommend you and all the other Amiga owners quit worrying about
what is said about the Amiga (unless it is a major mistake) and just go own and
use the machine. It doesn't really matter to you what Atari (or Mac, or IBM)
owners think of you, what matters is what you think of the Amiga and do with
it.
Dan
I agree that just plain healthy computer use should be the best promotion for
the Amiga. (Just a day ago in Gamers Forum, a member sat down with both the ST
and the Amiga in a computer and left the store with an Amiga. Fair comparison.
Honest decision.)
However, I disagree that Atari owners are no better or worse than any other
group of computer owners who seem compelled to expend ennormous amounts of
energy justifying their purchase (often by bad-mouthing the competition).
I certainly don't want to appear paranoid about it, but there does seem to be
an organized effort to misrepresent and malign computers in competition with
the ST. And I am embarrassed for the surprisingly large number of my colleagues
in the writing profession who have uncritically accepted the propaganda.
But back to the subject of Atari zealots.
I believe (and still believe) that the old Atari 800 line was THE best home
computer ever designed. All things considered (graphics, disk I/O, OS design,
useability, sound) I think it set standards in 8-bit computing that have never
been surpassed. And while I was a newspaper computer columnist, I never
hesitated to express that opinion. As a result, I was a big buddy of the local
Atari users' group.
When the Amiga came along, I saw it as a revolutionary advance in the state of
the personal computer art and wrote that in the newspaper. I compared the ST
and the Amiga and, while I made the (not controversial) conclusion that the ST
was a tremendous value, I also found it more utilitarian than exciting. For me,
the Amiga recaptured that initial thrill that we all felt for micros.
No sooner had that article appeared than I instantly was excommunicated from
the Atari fold. The president of the club even refused to talk to me and I was
regularly libeled at club meeting (including one which I attended). VERY poor
form, in my opinion.
That kind of behavior is disappointing and, no matter how thick or deep the
Atari ST party line becomes, I would hope that Amiga owners would resist
fightingfire with fire. The hardware can and will speak for itself.
I agree totally with your assessment of the phenomenom (and your assessment of
the Atari 8 bit). There are some obvious (to me, anyway) parallels that should
be looked at. The Atari 8 bit is/was far and away more of a complete machine
than the C64 — yet the loudest noises were heard from the C64 crowd. Now it
seems the loudest noise are coming from the Atari ST camp. It's interesting
that the C64 and Atari ST are Tramiel machines and the Atari 8 bit and Amiga
are Jay Minor machines.
(I do agree with Dan tho, that both average age of user and price paid for the
machine has a direct corelational to the 'loudness' of the evangelism).
Steve,
While I was manning a booth our user group put up at a local computer fest
and swap meet, the real tragedy of the Atari camp became quite evident to me.
It seems that the ST owners are even heaping scorn upon the 400/800 camp, and
there are rival ST groups that don't even talk to each other.
There does not seem to be the feeling of cameraderie and sharing of knowledge
that is so prevalent in the Amiga community.
Your comments about the ST and the 64 both being "Tramiel machines" is worthy
of note. I'm going to have to think about that one.
Regards, Larry.
Sigh, I guess you guys are all right – maybe I got caught up with emotionalism
when I read the technical manuals of the Amy and the underlying philosophy it
described, and also read the technical descriptions of the ST and it's too
design philosophy; and I become be-mystified on how one can have a purely
objective view of superior technology and choose the ST. Well, I guess …….
I don't know what to say…….. maybe I just got absolutely fed up with these
guys throwing punches at me wherever I come in contact with them. But then
again the situation could be reversed where some other Atari ST owner in this
great big country of ours, gets harrased by a unit of Amiga 'freedom fighters'
from time to time. ………….
What the hell are you talking about?
You paint a picture of the Atari community as a bunch of misinformed violent
idiots. From what I've seen from your messages, you are exactly like the Atari
community you described.
"But then again the situation could be reversed where some other Atari ST
owner in this great big country of ours, gets harrased by a unit of Amiga
'freedom fighters' from time to time"
Why would you want to harass me for buying an ST if I felt it was the best
machine for me? I have no intentions of harassing you for buying a machine that
you feel is best for you!
Do you _really_ expect an Atari owner to tell you that they made a mistake and
should have purchased an Amiga? Is that what you expect to find at an Atari
user's group meeting? Would you tell me that _you_ made a mistake? Of course
not! I wouldn't expect or want you to tell me that. Computers cost a lot of
money. People determine which computer is best for them before they purchase
it so they don't make a "mistake".
I invite you over to the Atari 16-bit forum to see what the Atari community is
_really_ like (at least as a whole). I won't tell you that you won't find some
of these "cheap" shots against the Amiga over there. Then again, I found them
here too. You will find the majority of atari owners over there working
together, sharing information and software, and trying to get the most out of
the machine they purchased.
– Mike
Bob,
I think I should question your assessment that the ST is the 'greatest
value' you found on examining the computer. I believe the basis for your
conclusion should be outlined. If you mean for the 'typical computer' user at
home who wants to type a letter and use a spreadsheet for domestic purposes –
and the for him the ST poses ease of use and 68000 chip backed computing power,
and with a price tag of about $600 dollars containing 520K of memory, and the
consumer can't afford to purchase much more: then you can say that the ST poses
the best value in that situation. However, I must insist if the person is in
the position to purchase either the 1040ST or the Amiga then he should in most
cases opt for the Amy because the Amy will offer 1x to 2x to 3x and even more
the productive output, made possible by its multitasking, and though prices may
'seem' a bit higher for products for the Amiga, on closer examination it will
be seen they are just as reasonable if not better. So:seen they are just as reasonable if not better. So:1. I will admit that the ST
can be considered the best value for people with a limited budget being able
only to afford the 520 configuration. 2. I think for people being able to
purchase the 1040 or the Amiga, generally speaking, the Amiga is by far the
better choice yielding considerably greater productive output, and offering
greater expandibility, and hence is a better long term investment.
Since I currently own both (and attend meetings for both (in fact I
once was an officer in the local Atari group, had to quit that since I didn't
have enough time)) I suspect that you are more likely to notice the attacks on
the machine you like (Amiga) than you are the ones against the other. So the
user group you went to was run by jerks who "excomumicated" you for liking the
Amiga over the ST. That doesn't prove anything except that the officers of the
group didn't like you. (In almost all user groups I've ever been to the
officers were "god" and the average member followed meekly along. (Which has
frightening implications for life outside user groups. But that isn't the
subject here.)) I also know people who've been "excomunicated" from CBM groups
for liking the ST.
I will agree that Atari management seems to be making more attacks
against other computers than CBM, but so do most of the other computer
companies. Atari's are more biased than most such ads are, but no a whole lot
more. (Jack seems to be contagious, other companies are slowing adopting some
of his tactics.) The current Atari ads I feel are just as bad as the old C64
ads that were made when he was still at CBM. (And like I said above, most
users are just followers. And to them the head of "their" computer company is
god. (The funny part is that Jack isn't head of Atari, Sam is.)) This makes
some Atari people worse than some Amiga people. But the converse is also true.
I'm also dissappointed with the press. But then I've almost always
been less than impressed with the coverage of the "small" players (not Apple or
IBM) in the computer world. From the amount of bad coverage of computer and
computer related events this year I would say that most members of the computer
press _never_ check the facts on anything. (At least most members of the
"real" press try to check the facts. They may not do a very good job, but it
is better than the computer press does.)
Dan
I am a authorized Atari and authorized Amiga dealer. I personally
own one of each (ST and an Amiga). I have heard all the gripes about
each machine, I have also heard the loves of each machine from both
customers and colleges. Amiga owners that I have seen are just as
enthusiastic and shall I say slanderess as Atari owners. One Amiga
owner told a cutomer of mine as she was at the counter paying for her
ST that he felt sorry for her! While attending Comdex in a conversation with
an Electronic Arts representative who told me that he couldn't believe the
fanaticism of the average Amiga owners who would travel from California
and New York to spend a week admiring the Amiga and the products for it.
available for it. These were not people in computer related jobs,
they were as he put it "Groupies" and he had never seen it on any
computer before.
Alot of the talk and rumors are a result of the companies who
manufacture and sell these computers. Commodore and Atari both have
made major mistakes on the marketing of these machines. They have
created a great deal of the atmosphere surrounding these people and
their computers. In my store last year there was a lot of fighting
amoung the customers as to which machine was better. It's the same
as "My dad is better than your dad!" Both machines are great and
each has it's strong points. I would recomend an ST to some people while
other's I suggest Amigas. To each his own, the Amiga is a classy
machine, don't get involved with those petty arguments and be happy
with what you have or replace it!
Ken