#NAB News
57 messages in this thread
Some more info for those interested in the new Toaster Flyer… As
one might expect it requires two hard drives. The rep at NAB said you
could get something like six minutes per gigabyte, but varied with
resolution. In the demo I saw the computer locked up and had to be
rebooted, so I guess it's still got some bugs. Their "Flyer System"
includes the following: Flyer ($3995), two 1.7 gig drives ($1920
per), Toaster 4000 ($2395), TBC (optional Newtek TBC), CD ROM ($400),
and Amiga 4000. Total of about $14,300. So far only the Micropolis
1.7 gig 2217AV can be used with the system. The system also handles
two channels of 44.1khz audio. At the Newtek booth there was also
someone handing out flyers for the Raptor from DeskStation
Technology, which is the Screamer. It includes two RISC processors,
128Mb of RAM, for under $15,000. It requires "preferably" a Toaster
4000, an ethernet card, and Lightwave 3.1. The flyer says they are
shipping now (phone (800)793-3375). It seemed like everywhere you
turned at NAB there was another company demonstrating a new nonlinear
system.
Let me get this straight. The guys who left Newtek started another
company which is selling the Screamer, now called the Raptor. The
guys left at Newtek are selling the Flyer, which is something else?
What else happened at NAB? Anything else cool Toaster related, or
competition wise on other systems?
Pardon me, but the guys who left Newtek are NOT selling the Raptor.
It's an entirely different bunch of people who were co-developing the
hardware for screamer with Newtek. Evidently Newtek will be providing
the software, and this other company will provide the hardware.
Flyer is a Newtek product expected to start shipping in 3rd quarter
this year.
Flyer isn't shipping until 3rd quarter? You can get Amiga based NLE
_now_ from DMI.
Its my understanding that DMI's product still has some bugs in it –
enough so that it causes production problems. Seems that there is a
problem with the hardware they are using, and the that problem is
only getting addressed now.
It worked fine for the several hours I've played with it over the last
week.
Maybe, but you can't get ANYTHING that has the quality of NewTek's.
JG
John.
>>you can't get ANYTHING that has the quality of NewTek's
Could be, but you can't get Newtek's now
-sja
Mike,
I don't think the folks that left Newtek have anything at all to do with the
company making the Raptor.
The way I understand it, Newtek handed the Screamer off to
DeskStation Technology, the company who produced the hardware for the
original Screamer. The Raptor uses SoftScreamer, "Newtek's software
version of the once announced Screamer". The flyer says the Raptor is
fully endorsed by Newtek. I don't know what happened to the folks who
left Newtek (Montgomery, Kiki, et. al.). The folks who are left are
selling the Flyer, which is another board/software for the Toaster
system. As far as what else happened, there were non-linear systems
all over the place, but I didn't spend much time looking around; I
kind of lost interest this year. Las Vegas is just about my least
favorite place, so I figured I'd bail instead of pay for another
night at Circus Circus (more of a Zoo than a Circus).
"Anything else cool Toaster related, or competition wise on other systems?"
Lots of competition. I'll leave it to the trade magazine editors to provide
the guided tour, but you couldn't walk more than a hundred or so feet at NAB
without seeing competitive systems, most of which are just as appealing to many
(particularly those who don't do any modeling) as the Toaster.
My own totally personal opinion is that reliance on the Amiga is NewTek's
single biggest liability. Plenty of Mac and PC based systems for the market to
choose from now, many with features equivalent to the Toaster.
Jerry
See my post and the NAB thread in AmigaArts!
TKs, TP
6 minutes per MEG sounds pretty Hideous to me UNLESS that includes
Audio. Thanx for the info from NAB
Yes, it does include audio – 8 tracks!
JG
Again, remember, that this is at the highest D@ quality setting. You can
get more with lower settings.
JG
John,
Has NewTek discussed what kind of capacity the device has for lower quality
video? I don't think that most wedding videographers, or "hobby" tapeheads,
need D2 quality 🙂 …yet…
Jonathan
I can't remember for sure. I think it may be about 30 minutes per meg?
I'll have to check up on it…
JG
30 minutes per *MEG*!! Perhaps, 30 minutes per GIG, right? 🙂
Jonathan
No! NewTeks compression scheme is so incredible that you can get 30
minutes of video in 1 meg of storage! They should have it worked out by
the time it ships to store that much in 1k!
Now if you bump up to D2 quality, you are looking at about 5k for 30
minutes of video and CD sound!
John "Going Crazy" Gross
I thought that the break through was that for each minute of video run, your
storance increased by 1 Meg. The problem to be solved is the case cracking that
occurs after the drive capacity exceeds the physical limits of the case.
;=)
-Marco
John,
<<< No! NewTeks compression scheme is so incredible that you can get 30
minutes of video in 1 meg of storage! They should have it worked out by
the time it ships to store that much in 1k!
Now if you bump up to D2 quality, you are looking at about 5k for 30
minutes of video and CD sound! >>>
ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THE ABOVE FIGURES ??? AND YES, I MEAN TO BE SHOUTING!
<G>
Jerry
And here I thought I was the only Crazy one here.
Jerry,
I have no doubt that JG was pulling our collective legs on this one. The
quality-to-HD space ratio is something that another post had called into
question. I think John was trying to make the point that many people's
expectations about HD space for high quality video/audio throughput were
untrealistic at this development stage in the technology.
Frank
I just purchased the entire Civil War series on a double density floppy. It's
great! Actually, it would be theoretically possible to store all of the books
and movies in the entire world on a single piece of platinum wire that you
could carry in your shirt pocket. Can anyone figure how to do this? It's a
brain teaser! (Keep in mind, the operative term here is theoretical). Once
understood, it makes perfect sense.
Jim Roof
Jim,
Is this question related to the one about how many angel can dance on the head
of a pin?
Jonathan
It's something like that, only this will actually work!
Jim Roof
John,
Sounds good. When do they come out with the Flyer for the Newton? Should be
able to store a fair amount of video and audio on your PDA with those
compression rates 🙂
Jonathan
With Audio I'm not so upset at the 6 minutes per Gigabyte. Also you say
lower quality output will give longer running time. I'd be happy with 30
minutes of VHS quality Output per Gig WITH NO ARTIFACTING.
Thanx for the info.
Peter,
Is it is 6 minutes per GIGABYTE.. not MEGABYTE. Unfortnately. 🙂
Ooops pardon my mistyping. 6 minutes per MEG WOULD be WONDERFUL tho eh?
That's what I was thinking. BTW, it's 6 minutes per Gigabyte, not
megabyte. I'm not sure if that includes audio. I was interested to see
that Newtek developed the compression algorithm for the Flyer; it doesn't
use any of the "PEG's", but instead they developed "Adaptive Statistical
Coding", since they felt the "PEG's" couldn't deliver broadcast quality
video (this is from a Video Toaster User article handed out at the show).
It also says that at the highest (D2) quality, it takes 4 to 5 Megs per
second (6 minutes per 1.4 to 1.8 gigs), and at a typical user quality it
takes 2 megs per second (6 minutes per .72 gigs). You can vary the
compression ratio from D2 down to SVHS quality.
Thanx for the info. SVHS quality would be FINE for me.
Something I don't really understand.. perhaps somebody can clear me up.
MPEG will deliver 74 minutes of Video/Audio on a 650MB CD.
MPEG-2 will deliver 17 minutes of Video/Audio on a 650MB CD.
Commericial satellite distribution is currently racing twoard MPEG 1 and
soon hope to go to MPEG-2. The one reason that the satelitte industry is
going MPEG is that they can get about 5 channels on a single transponder
with this new format–it wasn't for higher quality video, in fact, it is
probably lower quality at MPEG 1 than what is available with normal C band
distribution.
My question is why did NewTek decide to go on their own and create a new
format that gets 6 minutes per Gigabyte? I grant that MPEG is not D2
quality.. but how about MPEG 2?
Perhaps somebody who is in the know would educate as to why I should be
excited about the Newtek annoucement?
I am sure there is something I don't know on this. Educate me!
NewTek's reason for developing their own format is because they wanted to
produce broadcast quality output from the start. The other formats, i.e.,
MPEG, MPEG 2, etc, do not offer anywhere near the quality of output as
NewTek's new Flyer card.
The reason you should be so excited about their announcment is because for
under $4000. you can purchase a broadcast D2 quality non-linier editor
with 8 channels of CD quality sound. No other product can deliver that
kind of output for anywhere near the price. Not only that, bit it's
extremely easy to use; something the other guys forgot about too.
GT
As long as the Flyer doesn't turn out to be another Screamer <g>!
TJ
No, it will ship.
GT
That's good news, Greg. Those compression rates sound fantastic!
TJ
Have you guys at Amblin gotten any ink in Cinefex magazine???? I just got
issue 57 and theres an article entitled "Toasting Babylon 5"
so I am wondering if Seaquest has gotten similar coverage, or if it's
planned. Thanx
Cinefex has not done any coverage on us. B5 has a better publicist than
us I would imagine.
GT
Bogus, I'd have figgered that anything with Von Spielberg's name on it
would be snapped up by Cinefex Post Haste. Thanx for the info Greg.
MPEG by nature of it's compression does NOT lend itself to Editing very
well. Or so I've heard.
Hi Mark.
The purpose of MPEG and MPEG2 is to provide a format for CONSUMER
quality digital video DELIVERY. MPEG 1 and 2 are not useful for video editing
purposes. A full D1 signal is 27 megabytes PER SECOND. A full D2 signal is
13.5MB, so something's not right with NewTek's or someone else's math if
they're claiming to get real D2 off a single hard disk.
I dug into all of this for a project I was working on a while back. It
gave me enormous appreciation for just how significant a breakthrough Sony's
Digital Betacam format is. You get D1 SIGNAL FORMATS out (that is, the 270
megabits per second digital coax I/O) without the incredible cost of a real D1
deck ($80K). The trick of course is compression. This means that if a dub is
made from a D1 deck to a Digital Betacam deck, you're not getting an exact copy
because it's being compressed onto the tape, but when it's played back, you get
the same format as a D1 deck, so its compatible with all the full digital
suites. Plus, the Sony compression/decompression is so good that it's
basically impossible to see any degradation at all (even with vector scopes)
unless you do MANY, MANY dubs.
Anyway, getting back to MPEG – the broadcast/cable industry has been
seeking a format that's "good enough" for consumer viewing but doesn't require
huge bandwidths. This is especially significant because of the gradual move
toward giving the consumer the ability to watch anything any time. Fiber optic
cable is great, but not unlimited in bandwidth.
Paul,
Two things:
HBO is already using MPEG-1 for delivery to the cable industry. PBS has
also jumped onto this format bandwagon, dropping all of its normal C-band
delivery with the exception of a single transponder.. If the delivery of
MPEG-1 video is good enough for cable.. how much better quality do people
really need for commercial work?
I can't tell from your posting as to whether you are excited about this
new product from Newtek..are you?
I appreciate everyone's post on this.. just trying to learn here. 😉
I believe what Paul Higginbottom is refferring to is the fact that once
the program is Edited together Delivering Via MPEG is no problem. But if
you AQUIRE via MPEG you will have MEGA problems editing your material.
Mark,
>HBO is already using MPEG-1 for delivery to the cable industry
That must explain some of the strange looking glitches I've noticed on HBO
recently. They had the look of some kind of digital bit dropout, rather
than a tape glitch or signal noise.
-Jim
I did a bit of further research.
It seems that HBO and others are using what is called Digicipher which is
an encryption system that happens to also multiplex the signal. I am not
sure whether they use MPEG or not. Our beloved friend Randell Jessup from
Commodore posted in rec.video.satelitte on usenet that Digicipher doesn't
use MPEG.
Now the new service called DirectTV (DBS) does use MPEG.. but it is a
direct to the customer service and not meant to distribute programming to
the cable companies.
The last I heard HBO uses the Sony LMS D-2 version for programming the
feeds.
Richard -> on the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot from Minneapolis
Hi Mark.
>If the delivery of MPEG-1 video is good enough for cable.. how much better
>quality do people really need for commercial work?
You're missing a key point. There's quality levels required for DELIVERY
(i.e., VHS is good enough for many people), and there's quality levels desired
for DEVELOPMENT (production). To put it in Amiga terms for example, it's a
good idea to work with 24 bit images even if the final delivery is HAM.
Television commercials are often shot on film with EXPENSIVE commercials edited
on D1 and all digital suites, EVEN THOUGH, most folks will watch it on some
cheesy television. The reason? The higher quality the process, the less lost
as it gets compressed, expanded, broadcast, filtered, etc, etc.
MPEG-1 and 2 provide the benefits of digital (perfect repeatability, random
access, etc.) without the huge bandwidth (storage and transmission)
requirements of original full fidelity digitized video.
OK?
Regards,
Paul.
I forgot to answer your question!
>I can't tell from your posting as to whether you are excited about
>this new product from Newtek..are you?
Well, not having seen it, it's hard for me to tell. To play devil's advocate
(which you know I love to do 🙂 ) TODAY, I can buy for the PC, a package
including a card that does full screen video and audio digitizing to disk,
provides editing with the WONDERFUL Adobe Premiere program, and the package
costs $1000. So my obvious question is for NewTek, what do I get for the other
$3K? Granted, I hear it's 8 channel sound, and the video is apparently higher
quality, but the market's getting quite crowded for non-linear editing
solutions. The main concern I have with the Flyer (from the little I've read
here) is that I'm not sure the numbers add up (capacity, price, quality). For
example, 8 channel CD quality sound is 8 x 16 bits x 44.1K samples = 42MBytes /
minute. So for a five minute video, I've eaten over 200MB of hard disk
storage, just for the audio (assuming I'm using 8 tracks, which is unusual, I
grant you). Anyway, D2 quality is 13.5 million 8 bit (or better 10 bit)
samples per second, which for five minutes then, is 4 GBytes. If they're
compressing a lot, it's going to be noticable. So it's not clear to me how
usable this system is. Many people will accept S-VHS quality if the price is
right, but the editing software has got to be GREAT. Plus, while D2 is
digital, technically it's not separated as well as even SVHS! Anyway, NewTek's
floated a lot of prices over the years, so I hope the $4K price doesn't migrate
up too much before the product actually hits the streets.
I agree with what someone else said, that at this point, the Amiga is NewTek's
single biggest liability. If I were a video user, I would not be putting money
into an editing system based on a platform that has almost no dealers, hardly
any manufacturer support, and is bordering on bankruptcy. 3 years ago, the
Toaster made a LOT of sense for many videographers on a budget. Now, I
personally think the proposition is much more questionable. Just so there's no
confusion, I don't blame NewTek for the predicament they're in at all. Like
the many other EXCELLENT Amiga third party vendors (although NewTek stands
alone in their public prominence), they're getting burned by Commodore's
incompetence.
The Amiga is a power supply for the Flyer.
JG
>The Amiga is a power supply for the Flyer.
🙂 If that really is all the Amiga's being used for then why on earth didn't
they release it simultaneously for a PC or a Mac!?
Because right now it is being used in conjunction with the Toaster…which
needs Amiga chips.
JG
quite right! all the video professional trade journals are warning readers
not to get too hepped up about digital non-linear editing because the
quality just isn't there yet in MPEG. but the newtek stuff could deliver,
from the sound of it. another favorable cost-benefit ratio, like the one
that's made the toaster a hit.
The MPEG standards were based on designs for compressing LARGE images into
small spaces, MPEG is hacked to work better for moving series of pictures,
but still emphasize their low bit-rate data streams, which is why they can
play off slow CDs and are a choice for limited bandwidth transmission.
The Flyer is using the maximum transfer rates from the fastest available
drives to deliver lossless, high-bandwidth video data. According to
NewTek claims, their custom VTASC compression scheme introduces 'loss' in
the form of video noise which is equivalent to the 'generation loss' one
associates with repeated dubs. They also said that they could do 'better
than D2' lossless quality, but couldn't find an application for such.
Another interesting factor is the fact that The toaster and NewTek have
been working with D2 digital signals for years now, and the various
JPEG/MPEG products only seem to have heard that video comes in fields (60
per sec even) this year. Anyone who captures composite video to 24-bits
of RGB, then compresses that is creating alot (6-9 bits per pixel) of
bogus color info, then compressing it.. which is just silly. That is what
most of the existing NLE and capture systems do. Also, besides NewTek,
only Quantel was showing an NLE which was 'online'.. theirs was half a
million bucks (but it probably came with a technician!), and Matrox was
showing their MJPEG NLE, while explaining that it was IMPOSSIBLE to do
online NLE (hence their continued support of machine control).
>Also, besides NewTek, only Quantel was showing an NLE which was 'online'
I assume you're talking about the Quantel Henry, which is certainly
mind-boggling.
Anyway, what about Avid? Their stuff is certainly "online".
Have you seen Quantels Domino System ?
Full film res. images (aprox. 2kx3k) running at 28-30 FPS for doing
Digital Optical FX for the Movies. Can handle about 90 secs Realtime.
Film Scanner and S/W included for a couple Million. Operators/Artistes
cost Extra$$$. :^)
Love to see a Demo of one of these Babys, Theres a couple installed here
in LA.
….John
Hi Ho:
I was at Digital Magic's unveiling of the Domino. Didn't Impress me
much. There is nothing I saw them do that I couldn't do on my Amiga with a
Video Toaster and ImageFX. Except that maybe what they could do in almost
Realtime would take me 4 months just to write the arexx scripts. But, Hey,
other than that I'm not impressed….(much?)
Brad Hayes
CG&A
Wish I could hook our 2 Quantel XL Paintboxes to a Screamer Net :^)
2K Mips would reneder pretty quick for LW.
Sure like to work in a shop with a Domino……..
….John