#Forensic Rates
7 messages in this thread
Could someone with Forensic Animation experience please give me some help
setting a freelance rate?
I am an experienced broadcast 3d animator, and this is the first forensic work
I've been involved with. The going rate for commercial 3d in our market is
from $65 to $200 an hour. The job is for a large law firm on a civil lawsuit
recreating a traffic accident.
I would really be thankful for any suggestions, vague or not.
Thanks!
Scott
Scott,
You probably know or have heard of Viewpoint. I started in 1982 doing stop
motion animation for the courtroom. Then wrote an animation package using
Movie.byu in 1984. Scraped the code in 1987 and bought an Amiga. Viewpoint was
founded in 1988 to create animations for Ford, GM, etc. We bought Wavefront in
1988. Pricing has always been very difficult to figure for the courtroom.
Spending $50,000 for a 15 second animation was common. In 1986-88 the Amiga
brought the price down to less than $20,000 per trial. This usually included
about 5 different views of a two car 10 second animation. There are just a few
companies doing forensic animation that have Alias/Wavefront/Softimage/etc.
most of the rest are using 3D Studio or something else.
The pricing is not any easier these days. The most difficult task is working
with the expert witness. He is the guy that has the opinion of how the
accident happened. There are not very many of these. If the attorney doesn't
use an expert, then charge more. The attorney will try to put you into the
"expert" seat. You only are a "tool" for the expert.
The "magical" number for attorneys is less that $5,000.00. Their client
(either the defense or plantiff) can't imagine paying more than that. I think
attorneys should be convince to spend 10% of their charges on Visualization.
This is a start anyway …..
John,
>>I think attorneys should be convince to spend 10% of their charges on
Visualization.<<
Any idea what attorneys are spending on a case? I'm sure its a pretty wide
window. Just wondering what that 10% might figure out to be?
I wanted to tell you that you have some very fine people working for you,
specifically Casey Johnson, Walter Noot and Devin Shelly. Devin made some
changes on a brain and skull for me in record time and all with a very positive
and helpfull attitude. I tried another modeling company, there was no comparison
in my opinion.
Regards………….Rick – Technical Animations
Scott,
I based my rate on what the experts in the area were charging. If you can find
out what they are charging, then go with a rate thats in the bottom half of the
range. That would be a good starting place. In some areas that range would be
from $50-$200 per hour.
I second what John Wright said about the attorney using an expert. Don't let
the attorney talk you into generating your own numbers. That is unless you are
qualified to be both an expert and the animator.
Hopefully we will see you here more often as you get more into this field. BTW,
there is a list of forensic animators in the US which you download from the
Index & Info library, its called "Forlst.txt".
Regards…………Rick – Technical Animations
Scott,
You're getting some good advice. The best of which is to visit the forum often.
The list of Forensic Animators is good to get on, just a a cross reference if
you need advice.
I just completed a accident reconstruction that consisted of 3 views of a 2 car
collision. For each view, I rendered out the 2 possible scenarios the experts
for each side are trying to proof. All told I rendered six 10 second
animations. The invoice (which was quoted upfront) was just over 7K. After they
thought about it they added some surrounding detail, superimposed a description
of each in the lower corner and had me rerender the anims. Revisions were
another 2K. (make sure you specify that revisions to original specs will cost
extra). This case has a significant amount of money to be won or lost, so the
9K total for visuals was not a problem. I have found that the 5K limit may be
the ticket, for most cases, anything more in your "average" settlement is
considered too much.
Hope this helps. BTW – the best advice I ever got here and that has already
been suggested to you is make sure it is understood you are the "visual"
expert, creating from the facts of the expert witness. What you are doing does
not prove anything without the expert witnesses facts.
Paul
Paul, I've got one for you on the subject of pricing. Here's my scenario:
There's this ad agency in town who had the idea to produce a Windows screen
saver for their client. They'd then present the completed idea to the client in
hopes they'd love it and decide to use it for promotion. Since it's a beer
company they might just give the single disk saver out to people at bars. Not a
bad idea really. Anyway, I did the screen saver, two actually, both 320×240
.flc's. I'm supposed to give the place an invoice on Wed. No price was ever
discussed. Total, I put in about 50 hours, with a couple changes etc. Even if I
charge $20 an hour that's $1000. Does this seem like a fair price? The thing
is, is that it's at 320×240. If I handed it over on SP I'd have no problem
asking $2500 but this just seems like it shouldn't be as much as that when in
actuality it probably should. Any thoughts on this? BTW, If they do decide to
do it, they've also got to pay a $1250 licensing fee for the screen saver
engine.
DM
David,
Here's my thoughts on your situation.
First, sounds like your in a tough situation. You said no price was ever
discussed up front. That's dangerous. I have found even when I bid a job saying
it will be x amount of dollars and revisions will be x amount in addition, I
still have to remind them when revisions roll around that they are extra. I
always spell things out on price.
Second, if you've done a quality job, and it meets there needs. Charge your
normal rate. If you put in 50 hours then that is what it took and you should be
compensated. (BTW – I never have trouble turning in large invoices to ad
agencies, I know from experience they have no trouble sending large invoices
out, so turn about is fair play. But there is always the business end of things
– you know the client and what you can get for the work, but don't be afraid to
ask for what you think it is worth.
Third. About it being 320 x 240 flics versus being mastered on Beta SP at a
higher resolution. If 320 x 240 is the final output then you produced the job
at the maximum quality allowed by the process. There really is no difference in
the animation process depending on resolution of the output. Quality, well done
animation is the same regardless of how it is delivered.
Lastly, $1,000 for 2 versions of a custom screen saver sounds very justifiable
(even though I have not seen it, I assume they like it). I've seen my client
pay artists over $3,000 for 2 sign on scrrens for a multimedia presentation
(although they designed a logo too)
Hope it works for you.
Paul