CompuServe Thread

#Topic of the Week: Audio

27 messages in this thread
#3192From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPFeb 25, 1995 9:14 PM
Well, I figure it is about time for a new "Topic of the Week" so why don't I go ahead and start this one off. This Topic of the Week is audio, also known as thank God for Digital Audio editors <grin>. Questions I have include how was it done before digital editors? One trick that I have heard is that the Audio tracks are laid down to tape first, especially narration or ambient/music tracks then the video is inserted over the Audio. It would seem to me that without frame accurate sources and recorders, narration (with the camera on the speaker) would be virtually impossible. One thing that impresses me with the dificulties of linear audio editing is that in a conversation with a local network producer I found that at least two of the (big) three networks here in Denver are using a digital package called Pro Tools to edit audio with and at least one of them has the Pro Tools system installed on a cart that they can roll around from edit bay to edit bay. What sorts of tips/tricks/traps have you experienced with linear/non-linear audio editing? -John
#3195From: david bartzFeb 26, 1995 12:40 AM
John – I'm rather new to video, but have been doing audio for the past 20 years or so. I just discovered a tool that has made my life a whole lot easier. It's called Software Audio Workshop (SAW) from Innovative Quality Software. This is a digital audio editor that works with standard sound cards in a PC compatible. It works best with the Turtle Beach cards or the CardD+ from DAL. You can lurk over on their forum by using the GO SAWSUPPORT command and selecting Innovative Quality Software. I'm using SAW with a Turtle Beach Multisound and a zippy IDE drive. With a fast drive, you can get up to 4 stereo tracks mixing down in real time. (i.e., NO AUDIO "RENDERING") I can do 3 stereo tracks with my IDE drive. You have to understand this is with NO OTHER HARDWARE OTHER THAN THE STEREO SOUNDCARD. It's truly an amazing hack. It's faster than all heck because it's written in 32bit assembly language for Windows. I just did about a 1/2 hour of voice overs on a project that I had recorded to a PCM encoder (sort of a DAT forerunner). There were lots of bad takes, but it didn't matter because I spooled the lot onto my hard drive via SAW and just pasted the whole thing together. I then spooled it back onto the audio tracks on a video tape – perfectly. I don't work for the company, I'm just a wild enthusist. Prior to this I had been editing audio for my computer multi-media projects using Wave for Windows (from Turtle Beach), and I could have given my clients so much more, had I had this program. You can download a fully functional (except for 'save', I think) demo from the SAW forum. This is just as good as the Fast DP/R (for audio) if you can't afford to go DP/R yet. Check it out. db.out
#3262From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPFeb 27, 1995 5:50 PM
David, Thanks for the great tip! It does sound like a very interesting product. Does it have any "EQ" capabilites? (If so are they real-time?) I have used a ~$1300 plus harddrives Digital Audio Editor and the thing that blew me away was that it did not have any sort of EQ capability to speak of and would simply allow you to cut/paste pieces of audio together. -John
#3284From: david bartzFeb 28, 1995 1:16 AM
I'm somewhat new to SAW, John, and so I haven't explored it fully. It has an "effects rack" (software) that you can plug into SAW, and among the rack "modules" are 1) File Format Converter 2) Audio Compressor/Limiter 3) ParaGraphic Equalizer 4) Echo Effects Generator 5) Auto Panner In just reading through the section on the equalizer, I believe it previews in real time (i.e. set it, preview, set again, preview, etc), but it processes the file (or subsection) once you have the settings you want. The processing can be slower or faster than real-time based on the computer speed. I believe eq processing is destructive and non-undoable. (make a copy) I believe that the Turtle Beach Quad Studio was reviewed in the current Keyboard Magazine. (I'm not 100% certain). But what I am fairly certain of is that the review that I read indicated that Quad was based on the Wave for Windows engine. If true, then this would mean that all mixes are done as non-realtime. This is not the case with SAW. Not to mention the blindingly fast screen re-draws that SAW provides. SAW will work with most any (check with the SAW forum) sound card. It's just that you will get the best performance out of the Turtle Beach cards and the CardD+, because they don't weigh down the computer's processor. good luck! db.out
#3305From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPFeb 28, 1995 10:47 AM
David, thanks again, a very interesting looking product. I will check it out! -John
#3383From: Michael W. ToweMar 2, 1995 8:46 AM
Hi D.B. Any word on how well SAW will work with a Roland card. I use a RAP 10 due to the exelent stnth. chip for MIDI work. Regards, Michael W. Towe Falcon Video Productions Santee Ca.
#3419From: david bartzMar 2, 1995 11:19 PM
Michael – I think they only work with 16-bit cards. Does the RAP-10 fit that profile? Can you record 16 bit .WAV files? Check on the SAW forum (GO SAWSUPPORT). Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeya! db.out
#3451From: Michael W. ToweMar 4, 1995 9:26 AM
Hi DB. Yep the RAP-10 is 16 bit, so it looks like I might have to check out SAW. Thanks, Michael W. Towe Falcon Video Productions Santee Ca.
#3207From: John Toebes/SYSOPFeb 26, 1995 5:01 PM
John, can we maybe sometime have a 3D modelling Topic of the Week? <grin> This wouldn't have anything to do with my recent resurgence of interest in 3d modellers (oh, no… 😉
#3263From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPFeb 27, 1995 5:50 PM
Jim, I will certainly add it to the que. I like this topic of the week thing, lots of good info… -John
#3223From: Stu SweetowFeb 27, 1995 2:06 AM
I would also be interested in audio recorders for video in the field, especially DAT, or even Mini-disc or DCC. Not that I'm doing research for an article for Videomaker. oh no!
#3239From: Timothy LiebeFeb 27, 1995 10:43 AM
Stu: >I would also be interested in audio recorders for video in the field, especially DAT, or even Mini-disc or DCC. Not that I'm doing research for an article for Videomaker. oh no!< Well, Stu, you *could* always look at my "Camcorner" column in the Feb. '95 issue of VIDEO, in which I touch on minidisks & portable DAT recorders as a means for recording double-system sound… 🙂 Tim Liebe VIDEO Magazine
#3381From: Stu SweetowMar 2, 1995 8:38 AM
yes, i read "camcorner" love it! will look up that issue. how come "Video" doesn't have more production oriented articles?
#3393From: Timothy LiebeMar 2, 1995 9:59 AM
Stu: >how come "Video" doesn't have more production oriented articles?< Good question! I'm not sure myself, offhand–and since I like writing production-oriented articles, I'm a bit disappointed. I know they're heavily into the "home theatre" end of the market, and seem to consider consumer/prosumer video production to be of less interest to their readership, so they don't concentrate on that aspect of things as much. Tim
#3241From: Al KratzerFeb 27, 1995 11:12 AM
John I've been doing simple cartoon animations using CorelMOVE and doing multitrack digital audio using TurtleBeach's QUAD studio. QUAD works pretty well with simple voice/background music/sound effects layering and by adding and subtracting frames I can get a good working synch to the 'Toon. Then I bring both elements into Adobe Premiere and line them up on the timelines and add fadeins, transitions etc. The whole thing gets output to an AVI using RLE or Video One compression. In my experience, Quad is not yet stable enough to do long (over 2-3 mins) multuitrack projects, particularly if you do a lot of bouncing and engage their automatic mixing recall. It also doesn't work as advertised in the area of synching to Midi playback. Most of these issues have been aknowledged by TB and a 1.1 release is due within a few months. I would advise anyone interested to wait on the sidelines until 1.1 shows up and the check in with the TB forum (MIDI vendor A) and see how users react to the fixes. For the kind of simple multitracking I do and probably for business presentations it's servicable now. I also use Wave for windows to do sound effects and to compile numerous sounds or voices onto one track. you can combine them and add specific silences between easily. Although Adobe Premiere 4.0 can assemble up to 99 audio tracks, I have found that compression goes more smoothly if you edit your tracks down to one or two ahead of time. Best Al
#3264From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPFeb 27, 1995 5:54 PM
Thanks for the information, Al. Is Quad studio a dedicated Audio editor or does it use a standard sound card. David Bartz mentioned a program called SAW that he said uses the Turtle Beach sound card and I wonder if QUAD also uses this same sound card. -John
#3454From: Al KratzerMar 4, 1995 12:30 PM
John At the moment you need to have a Turtle Beach Tahiti or Monterey sound card for Quad. The basic package comes with the Tahiti which is a Monterey card minus MIDI wavetable capabilities. I've seen it lately for about $320 in Computer Shopper. Word is they will eventually make a version compatible with other sound cards, but if the speed at which they are getting together the 1.1 version is any indication, it will be a while yet. The Tahiti is an awesome card sound quality-wise and I highly recommend it. Al
#3500From: JOHN C. McLAURINMar 6, 1995 4:51 PM
John, Having had toooo! many opportunities to work with linear audio/video editing, my experience has been that it is easier to lay down the audio tracks first,then "insert" the video. If the master has hi-fi audio(and you want to keep it), then the audio could be laid down on the linear tracks,allowing the original sound to be used. There are so many variations, they will make you an old man–Quickly! As far as syncing the audio to video where you've got audio recorded, say on a seperate tape, some type of sound (ala the old clap-board) is /can be used to sync up the audio/video. Sorry to be long winded, but I could talk for hours on this subject and still feel like I was an idiot. Have had some successes, though. Recently purchased an Akai DR4 Hard Disk Recorder to lay down my soundtracks. Awesome piece of equipment. Maybe we can discuss this again. John
#3535From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPMar 7, 1995 5:55 PM
John, Thanks for the insight. One problem I see with laying down the audio first is the fact that you cannot really end up with hi-fi audio on the master unless you go down yet one more generation, right? If you record the hi-fi audio of the source to a linear track on the master you have just lost 30db or so of fidelity. Then you think about things like 5/5.1 channel home theatre sound. Digital has got to be the way to go, but, even with digital sound, I wonder how things like sub-woofer tracks get encoded. I think that they encode the different channels out of phase, but it sure would be neat to have a product that you could lay down the tracks with and then choose how they "play" out of systems that are mono-aural, stereo, and stereo surround sound. -John
#3568From: John Reginald HarrisMar 8, 1995 2:23 PM
For audio on a Mac, we recently obtained DECK II 2.1 (now 2.2 and I'm waiting for it!). This is a hard disk system, which supports both the Digidesign hardware (audio Media, sound tools and ProTools) as well as the build in 16 bit audio of AV Macs and PowerMacs. On an 840 AV you get 8 tracks of 16bit 44.1 audio without any additional hardware. On PowerMac 8100 said to be more like 12-14 tracks. Very nice interface, nice editor. Not much yet in effects, because digidesign won't license them. (long history here– the Deck manufacturer OSC wrote the original ProTools editing software.) OSC says that in very near future the system will support Premiere audio effect plugins–EQ, reverb, compression etc. For Protools users–(not the current PTIII) an 8 and 16 track tool (additional software) will allow the 4 track PT card to become an 8 or 16 track nonlinear HD system. I'm just working with the system so I can't go into too many details yet. (plus with 2.2 coming some of the things I learn will change.) My two cents worth Reg Harris
#3574From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPMar 8, 1995 5:57 PM
Reg, Great! Sounds like a neat setup! -John
#3569From: John Reginald HarrisMar 8, 1995 2:24 PM
Also:: is there a standard place for the Topic of the Week? Maybe a folder of its own? I just stumbled across it this week.
#3572From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPMar 8, 1995 5:45 PM
John, I guess for right now it will migrate. The only constant that I can tell you is that it will likely say, Topic of the Week: XXXXX. I think that if it relates to a particular, pre-existing forum section that I will put it there, otherwise it will go into the "news" section. -John
#3614From: John Reginald HarrisMar 9, 1995 8:26 PM
I understand (BTW I go by my middle name (or nickname)–Reg
#3618From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPMar 9, 1995 8:35 PM
My mistake, Reg. I'll get it right next time. -John
#3660From: Stu SweetowMar 11, 1995 3:32 AM
I'm researching an article on audio tape recorders for video production. Anybody know of files, articles available, etc. Looking for equipment and applications of DAT, minidisc, DCC, multitrack cassette, etc. I'll touch briefly on DAW, but that's not the focus of the article. Thanks Stu Sweetow
#3665From: John Reginald HarrisMar 11, 1995 5:03 PM
Might try taking a look at Videograpy Mag in (I think?) the Jan issue- had a segment on Audio for Video. Not really review, but more of a update, but it may help. Reg