#Topic of the Week: Audio
27 messages in this thread
Well, I figure it is about time for a new "Topic of the Week" so why don't I go
ahead and start this one off.
This Topic of the Week is audio, also known as thank God for Digital Audio
editors <grin>. Questions I have include how was it done before digital
editors? One trick that I have heard is that the Audio tracks are laid down to
tape first, especially narration or ambient/music tracks then the video is
inserted over the Audio. It would seem to me that without frame accurate
sources and recorders, narration (with the camera on the speaker) would be
virtually impossible.
One thing that impresses me with the dificulties of linear audio editing is
that in a conversation with a local network producer I found that at least two
of the (big) three networks here in Denver are using a digital package called
Pro Tools to edit audio with and at least one of them has the Pro Tools system
installed on a cart that they can roll around from edit bay to edit bay.
What sorts of tips/tricks/traps have you experienced with linear/non-linear
audio editing?
-John
John –
I'm rather new to video, but have been doing audio for the past 20 years or so.
I just discovered a tool that has made my life a whole lot easier. It's called
Software Audio Workshop (SAW) from Innovative Quality Software. This is a
digital audio editor that works with standard sound cards in a PC compatible.
It works best with the Turtle Beach cards or the CardD+ from DAL. You can lurk
over on their forum by using the GO SAWSUPPORT command and selecting Innovative
Quality Software. I'm using SAW with a Turtle Beach Multisound and a zippy IDE
drive. With a fast drive, you can get up to 4 stereo tracks mixing down in
real time. (i.e., NO AUDIO "RENDERING") I can do 3 stereo tracks with my IDE
drive. You have to understand this is with NO OTHER HARDWARE OTHER THAN THE
STEREO SOUNDCARD. It's truly an amazing hack. It's faster than all heck
because it's written in 32bit assembly language for Windows. I just did about
a 1/2 hour of voice overs on a project that I had recorded to a PCM encoder
(sort of a DAT forerunner). There were lots of bad takes, but it didn't matter
because I spooled the lot onto my hard drive via SAW and just pasted the whole
thing together. I then spooled it back onto the audio tracks on a video tape –
perfectly.
I don't work for the company, I'm just a wild enthusist. Prior to this I had
been editing audio for my computer multi-media projects using Wave for Windows
(from Turtle Beach), and I could have given my clients so much more, had I had
this program. You can download a fully functional (except for 'save', I think)
demo from the SAW forum.
This is just as good as the Fast DP/R (for audio) if you can't afford to go
DP/R yet.
Check it out.
db.out
David,
Thanks for the great tip! It does sound like a very interesting product. Does
it have any "EQ" capabilites? (If so are they real-time?) I have used a
~$1300 plus harddrives Digital Audio Editor and the thing that blew me away was
that it did not have any sort of EQ capability to speak of and would simply
allow you to cut/paste pieces of audio together.
-John
I'm somewhat new to SAW, John, and so I haven't explored it fully. It has an
"effects rack" (software) that you can plug into SAW, and among the rack
"modules" are
1) File Format Converter
2) Audio Compressor/Limiter
3) ParaGraphic Equalizer
4) Echo Effects Generator
5) Auto Panner
In just reading through the section on the equalizer, I believe it previews in
real time (i.e. set it, preview, set again, preview, etc), but it processes the
file (or subsection) once you have the settings you want. The processing can
be slower or faster than real-time based on the computer speed. I believe eq
processing is destructive and non-undoable. (make a copy)
I believe that the Turtle Beach Quad Studio was reviewed in the current
Keyboard Magazine. (I'm not 100% certain). But what I am fairly certain of is
that the review that I read indicated that Quad was based on the Wave for
Windows engine. If true, then this would mean that all mixes are done as
non-realtime. This is not the case with SAW. Not to mention the blindingly
fast screen re-draws that SAW provides.
SAW will work with most any (check with the SAW forum) sound card. It's just
that you will get the best performance out of the Turtle Beach cards and the
CardD+, because they don't weigh down the computer's processor.
good luck!
db.out
David, thanks again, a very interesting looking product. I will check it out!
-John
Hi D.B.
Any word on how well SAW will work with a Roland card. I use a RAP 10 due
to the exelent stnth. chip for MIDI work.
Regards,
Michael W. Towe
Falcon Video Productions
Santee Ca.
Michael –
I think they only work with 16-bit cards. Does the RAP-10 fit that profile?
Can you record 16 bit .WAV files? Check on the SAW forum (GO SAWSUPPORT).
Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeya!
db.out
Hi DB.
Yep the RAP-10 is 16 bit, so it looks like I might have to check out SAW.
Thanks,
Michael W. Towe
Falcon Video Productions
Santee Ca.
John, can we maybe sometime have a 3D modelling Topic of the Week? <grin> This
wouldn't have anything to do with my recent resurgence of interest in 3d
modellers (oh, no… 😉
Jim,
I will certainly add it to the que. I like this topic of the week thing, lots
of good info…
-John
I would also be interested in audio recorders for video in the field,
especially DAT, or even Mini-disc or DCC. Not that I'm doing research for an
article for Videomaker. oh no!
Stu:
>I would also be interested in audio recorders for video in the field,
especially DAT, or even Mini-disc or DCC. Not that I'm doing research for an
article for Videomaker. oh no!<
Well, Stu, you *could* always look at my "Camcorner" column in the Feb. '95
issue of VIDEO, in which I touch on minidisks & portable DAT recorders as a
means for recording double-system sound… 🙂
Tim Liebe
VIDEO Magazine
yes, i read "camcorner" love it! will look up that issue. how come "Video"
doesn't have more production oriented articles?
Stu:
>how come "Video" doesn't have more production oriented articles?<
Good question! I'm not sure myself, offhand–and since I like writing
production-oriented articles, I'm a bit disappointed. I know they're heavily
into the "home theatre" end of the market, and seem to consider
consumer/prosumer video production to be of less interest to their readership,
so they don't concentrate on that aspect of things as much.
Tim
John
I've been doing simple cartoon animations using CorelMOVE and doing multitrack
digital audio using TurtleBeach's QUAD studio. QUAD works pretty well with
simple voice/background music/sound effects layering and by adding and
subtracting frames I can get a good working synch to the 'Toon. Then I bring
both elements into Adobe Premiere and line them up on the timelines and add
fadeins, transitions etc. The whole thing gets output to an AVI using RLE or
Video One compression.
In my experience, Quad is not yet stable enough to do long (over 2-3 mins)
multuitrack projects, particularly if you do a lot of bouncing and engage their
automatic mixing recall. It also doesn't work as advertised in the area of
synching to Midi playback. Most of these issues have been aknowledged by TB and
a 1.1 release is due within a few months. I would advise anyone interested to
wait on the sidelines until 1.1 shows up and the check in with the TB forum
(MIDI vendor A) and see how users react to the fixes.
For the kind of simple multitracking I do and probably for business
presentations it's servicable now.
I also use Wave for windows to do sound effects and to compile numerous sounds
or voices onto one track. you can combine them and add specific silences
between easily.
Although Adobe Premiere 4.0 can assemble up to 99 audio tracks, I have found
that compression goes more smoothly if you edit your tracks down to one or two
ahead of time.
Best
Al
Thanks for the information, Al. Is Quad studio a dedicated Audio editor or
does it use a standard sound card. David Bartz mentioned a program called SAW
that he said uses the Turtle Beach sound card and I wonder if QUAD also uses
this same sound card.
-John
John
At the moment you need to have a Turtle Beach Tahiti or Monterey sound card for
Quad. The basic package comes with the Tahiti which is a Monterey card minus
MIDI wavetable capabilities. I've seen it lately for about $320 in Computer
Shopper. Word is they will eventually make a version compatible with other
sound cards, but if the speed at which they are getting together the 1.1
version is any indication, it will be a while yet. The Tahiti is an awesome
card sound quality-wise and I highly recommend it.
Al
John,
Having had toooo! many opportunities to work with linear audio/video
editing,
my experience has been that it is easier to lay down the audio tracks
first,then
"insert" the video. If the master has hi-fi audio(and you want to keep it),
then the
audio could be laid down on the linear tracks,allowing the original sound to be
used. There are so many variations, they will make you an old man–Quickly!
As far as syncing the audio to video where you've got audio recorded, say on
a seperate tape, some type of sound (ala the old clap-board) is /can be used
to sync up the audio/video.
Sorry to be long winded, but I could talk for hours on this subject and
still
feel like I was an idiot. Have had some successes, though. Recently purchased
an Akai DR4 Hard Disk Recorder to lay down my soundtracks. Awesome piece
of equipment. Maybe we can discuss this again.
John
John,
Thanks for the insight. One problem I see with laying down the audio first is
the fact that you cannot really end up with hi-fi audio on the master unless
you go down yet one more generation, right? If you record the hi-fi audio of
the source to a linear track on the master you have just lost 30db or so of
fidelity.
Then you think about things like 5/5.1 channel home theatre sound. Digital has
got to be the way to go, but, even with digital sound, I wonder how things like
sub-woofer tracks get encoded. I think that they encode the different channels
out of phase, but it sure would be neat to have a product that you could lay
down the tracks with and then choose how they "play" out of systems that are
mono-aural, stereo, and stereo surround sound.
-John
For audio on a Mac, we recently obtained DECK II 2.1 (now 2.2 and I'm waiting
for it!). This is a hard disk system, which supports both the Digidesign
hardware (audio Media, sound tools and ProTools) as well as the build in 16 bit
audio of AV Macs and PowerMacs. On an 840 AV you get 8 tracks of 16bit 44.1
audio without any additional hardware. On PowerMac 8100 said to be more like
12-14 tracks. Very nice interface, nice editor. Not much yet in effects,
because digidesign won't license them. (long history here– the Deck
manufacturer OSC wrote the original ProTools editing software.) OSC says that
in very near future the system will support Premiere audio effect plugins–EQ,
reverb, compression etc. For Protools users–(not the current PTIII) an 8 and
16 track tool (additional software) will allow the 4 track PT card to become an
8 or 16 track nonlinear HD system.
I'm just working with the system so I can't go into too many details yet.
(plus with 2.2 coming some of the things I learn will change.)
My two cents worth
Reg Harris
Reg,
Great! Sounds like a neat setup!
-John
Also:: is there a standard place for the Topic of the Week? Maybe a folder of
its own? I just stumbled across it this week.
John,
I guess for right now it will migrate. The only constant that I can tell you
is that it will likely say, Topic of the Week: XXXXX. I think that if it
relates to a particular, pre-existing forum section that I will put it there,
otherwise it will go into the "news" section.
-John
I understand
(BTW I go by my middle name (or nickname)–Reg
My mistake, Reg. I'll get it right next time.
-John
I'm researching an article on audio tape recorders for video production.
Anybody know of files, articles available, etc. Looking for equipment and
applications of DAT, minidisc, DCC, multitrack cassette, etc. I'll touch
briefly on DAW, but that's not the focus of the article.
Thanks
Stu Sweetow
Might try taking a look at Videograpy Mag in (I think?) the Jan issue- had a
segment on Audio for Video. Not really review, but more of a update, but it
may help.
Reg