#Future of DTV?
11 messages in this thread
Paul, your setup and emphasis on low quality digital editing has me now
thinking along these lines. Here's were I am now (aplogies if you've seen
this post before) …
I'm a rank amateur (and 25 yrs with 35mm photography) shooting Hi8 with a
Sony TR-700. I am looking for a good video editing suit, preferably
PC/Windows based but I would accept a non-computer solution if need be. I'm
having a very hard time getting a fix on decent amateur gear … anything
good appears to be in the pro ranks only and consumer photo/video shops do
NOT carry any of it. Performance is the primary consideration but price
follows as a close second.
So far I've had strong recommendations from 'prosumers' for Videonics stand
alone editing suite (EditSuite, MX-1 Mixer and TM-2000 Titler) and ///FAST
Video Machine Lite for Windows. Both about $2200.
For lesser cost I've come across Great Valley Products Personal Suite Plus
built around their G-Lock VGA+ card (uses the slow Tseng ET-4000 chip) and
G-Lock modified versions of Video Director 1.5, PrimeTime and Curtain Call.
Have you heard of any of these? This suit doesn't do A/B roll but does do
fade to and from graphics. Scroll, fades, wipes, etc. titles. $499 from
Electronic Mailbox. I do just have this one in hand but haven't put it on a
PC yet.
I'd also like to try out Abbates Video Toolkit for Windows and maybe
FutureVideo's V-Station 3300 edit controller also for Windows (this one has
GPI and will trigger Videonics' MX-1 for SFX if one wants such a mix).
The candidates mentioned in the above two paragraphs are much less expensive
than the ///FAST or Videonics suite solutions but if they are 'inadequate'
then it's the ///FAST vs. Videonics. I don't have to have A/B roll
initially (fade to and from graphics is ok) tho I'd like it eventually when
I add another source (probably Sony EV-S7000 Hi8 deck). I'm also using a
Mitsu U-82 S-VHS deck for recording which has only IR control and this, of
course, is limiting. I really ought to have a machine controllable
interface on this deck.
Now enter your influence on low quality digital editing, esp. Adobe Preimere
and now …
The computer stuff I'm taking about is not NLE, only edit control, titling,
graphics and effects. I'd like to mix some simple NLE with tape editing but
all who've used the consumer priced stuff say it is totally inadequate for
video output. It seems to me that if this low res NLE stuff [Paul,
recognize your influence? <g>] could be used to setup the EDL then turn this
over to the tape edit control software a lot of wear and tear plus much
shorter edit times could be obtained. So, I'm looking to this sort of
'hybrid' consumer level solution. For this reason I am biased toward a
computer based edit controller and therefore titler, graphics, special
effects, etc. BUT if the programs and hardware don't measure up the
Videonics solution is a solid one. Just limited in this sense.
Paul, something like VideoBlaster RT300, MicroVIDEO DC1, Snap Plus VL, Video
Wonder, Snappy Video Snapshot – all with JPEG compression – come to mind.
Most are packaged with Preimere tho the ads show the older 1.1 version. Now
you are Mac and I'm PC, but maybe you can advise or am I totally out in
right field?
Thanks.
-jts
John/Paul:
>I'm a rank amateur (and 25 yrs with 35mm photography) shooting Hi8 with a Sony
TR-700. I am looking for a good video editing suit, preferably PC/Windows based
but I would accept a non-computer solution if need be. I'm having a very hard
time getting a fix on decent amateur gear … anything good appears to be in
the pro ranks only and consumer photo/video shops do NOT carry any of it.
Performance is the primary consideration but price follows as a close second.<
Mind if I pop in here a sec? Since I haven't followed this thread from the
git-go, I'm not sure how you intend this stuff to end up, John. Are you, like
Paul, doing public-access/special-occasion video level stuff, or are you aiming
more for low-end industrials? Is it a requirement at this point for you, either
financially or creatively, to be using DTV at all (and how soon do you
anticipate it becoming a requirement)? And how hard would it be for you to
upgrade your VCRs?
Except for Gold Disk's Video Director, I can't think of any computer-based edit
controller solutions that don't require some type of control better than
synchro-edit or IR remote (which the Mitsubishis use). Since the Video Director
*only* does "cuts only" and can't be upgraded past that, it might be better for
you, right now, to get an editing VCR or two that can accept either Panasonic
5-pin controllers (the AG-1970) or LANC controllers (I think Sony makes a
couple editing models that work in S-VHS).
OTOH, if you need to do transitions and titles right now, and need it fairly
cheap, and don't mind VHS-level quality, the Studio Magic being discussed
elsewhere isn't a bad option for computer-based editing. It'll do titles,
fades, import some graphics formats, has its own genlock, and it costs only
$450.
Also, if you're in the market for a special effects box (non broadcast quality)
and want a lot of flexibility inexpensively, the Videonics MX-1 does a lot of
stuff for a little over $1,000. As for titles, you can always "key" titles shot
off title cards w/the MX-1, or any of the Panasonic SEGs (AVE-3, AVE-5, AVE-7,
MX-30, MX-50).
While I think the Fast Video Machine is probably as near the ideal as you'll
get (it can "print to video" titles, graphics, animations, etc., in addition to
doing all sorts of transitions and edit controlling besides), keep in mind that
you'll need both input and output VCRs that are controlled via either LANC or
Panasonic 5-pin.
Hope this helps,
Tim Liebe
Yes, that helps. You raise again the very issues I'm trying to come to
terms with. Simply put, spend a little now and use the Mitsu forgoing A/B
roll (fades except for fades to graphics). Cost only $500. Or put that
towards a machine controllable record deck. And get software that will do
A/B … like Video ToolKit, etc. I'm not likely to do ///FAST because I'm
just getting started and don't want to spend the $2,500 now. Actually I
like what I understand about GVP's Personal Suite Plus except Video Director
and lack of A/B.
Here's something I'm considering … go with a VDECK for recording. Still
uses the 700 for source. Then I can dub audio via PCM on the VDECK once the
master tape is made. Then copy this to VHS for distribution to folks. When
ready I could either add a machine controllable SVHS and move the VDECK
beside the 700 for A/B roll OR get another Hi8 deck depending how I like
mastering to Hi8 instead of the intended SVHS. Leave the Mitsu U-82 alone
in my home theater setup where it belongs anyway.
This provides minimal additional outlay with a clear growth path as I learn.
My needs are ONLY hobby, not professional. But I want as near professional
results as my skill and tools will allow.
Is this rational or is there another course you would suggest?
Thanks.
-jts
John:
>Here's something I'm considering … go with a VDECK for recording. Still
uses the 700 for source. … Is this rational or is there another course you
would suggest?<
I hate to admit my ignorance, but I'm not sure what you mean by a "VDECK" (I
had the notion it was a form of time code/edit protocol). Are you referring to
an editing VCR that uses/generates VDECK protocol?
Tim
Yes, like the CVD-1000 Hi8 Vdeck. Uses native VISCA protocol for more
extensive control than LANC. But you can put a Vbox in front of a LANC
deck and talk VISCA to it if that's what's required by your setup (hope I
don't have this backward). The Sony VISCA decks are about the same price as
a comparably equipped prosumer Hi8 deck. It makes for yet another decision
point in putting together a setup that I'm not sure how to deal with.
Maybe someone can jump in and explain.
-jts
John:
>The Sony VISCA decks are about the same price as a comparably equipped
prosumer Hi8 deck. It makes for yet another decision
point in putting together a setup that I'm not sure how to deal with.<
Thanks for clarifying!
Hmmm…if I understood you properly, you're debating whether or not to create
edited masters on S-VHS or Hi8, yes? Maybe my understanding's 'way out of date,
but it seems I've heard that, since Hi8 doesn't have a control track per se (it
uses part of its video track for that purpose), and since it uses a
smaller-sized tape, it wasn't generally recommended for editing to.
OTOH, I'd like to hear a more up-to-date opinion…
Tim
The issue as I understand it is tape fragility. The VHS/SVHS tape can
withstand more abuse than 8mm. BUT the VHS lays down a control track AND
sound mixed with video. So audio dub can only be done to the inferior
linear track, which is mono I believe.
OTOH, Hi lays down RCTC code and PCM audio separate from video. Yes they
mix audio with video for straight stereo hifi like VHS but they do the PCM
also which is DAT really. How can you beat that? <g> So, if you master to
Hi8 you can now audio dub from the original hifi layed down with the video
and mix in new audio to the PCM tracks. Bottom line, best video and best
sound without losing a generation.
Now which seems better?
If you're going to mix audio at same time you do the assembly edit then you
could go to either format. But you can see the flexibility going to Hi8.
-jts
John:
>The issue as I understand it is tape fragility. The VHS/SVHS tape can
withstand more abuse than 8mm. BUT the VHS lays down a control track AND
sound mixed with video. So audio dub can only be done to the inferior
linear track, which is mono I believe.
>OTOH, Hi lays down RCTC code and PCM audio separate from video. Yes they mix
audio with video for straight stereo hifi like VHS but they do the PCM also
which is DAT really. How can you beat that?<
Good point, John! OTOH, not *all* Hi8 camcorders/edit decks lay down PCM–at
least, they didn't used to (when I was researching it for an article on sound
postproduction a few years back, I found out that only the more expensive
decks–in the $2,000+ range–laid down PCM).
And I don't know how it is for you, but tape/case fragility is a *big* issue
for me …
>If you're going to mix audio at same time you do the assembly edit then you
could go to either format. But you can see the flexibility going to Hi8.<
Yes, I can–I'm just more comfortable w/S-VHS as an edited master format, is
all.
Tim
The cost of the Sony Hi8 SL-V7000 that does PCM audio is in line with the
Panasonic 1970. I've just started shooting Hi8 but so far in using two
tapes over and over I just don't see the problem with drop outs (there are
some) or overall fragility. Anyway, I plan to acquire, edit to the master
then copy to SVHS/VHS anyway. The viewing over time will be with the more
robust tape. This seems an ok compromise so far. I want to make sure I can
get top sound AND top video.
It could be that NLE with cd soundtracks mixed in then dumped out to SVHS
makes this issue moot eventually.
-jts
John, hi.
It struck me that our conversation isn't related to the topic (apologies to
readers of this thread), so I've chosen to reply in e-mail.
Paul
You're right. I suppose this thread should be split off into a new subject.
Thanks.
-jts