#Release 2 Raytracing?
29 messages in this thread
Thanks for the reply(s) (40 new messages on this topic 3 days after I left
the original message). 3DSr2 sounds incredible. I can't wait to get a
copy. Is that really true though? That the wavefront guys don't use real
raytracers either? What about stuff like terminator 2? They used Silicon
Graphics equipment and their reflections were QUITE good. It sounds though
like you have more reflecting freedom with 3ds than you would with a
raytracer anyway, so I suppose it's the way to go.
Aaron
Absolutely ZERO raytracing was used in Terminator 2. The metal man was
created (for his CGI versions) with basically the same technology as
3DSr2's cubic environment maps. There's an issue of Cinefex magazine that
goes into excrutiating detail about how this was done.
The secret to production animation is finding ways to get very accurate and
aesthetic effects WITHOUT resorting to computationally-expensive techniques
such as raytracing.
This is what the core of 3DSr2 is all about. The new renderer. It makes
the entire package click.
– G
It was interesting seeing the ILM presentation on T2 at NCGA. Looks like
they had to air-brush in the T1000's knees as he walked out of the fire.
The scenes they showed had gaps at his knees as he walked.
Evan
It's fascinating to see how many techniques the ILM people used to make
that film. That issue of Cinefex magazine is priceless for anyone who
wants to understand how it was done.
– G
Gary. Could you post an address for Cinefex magazine? I'd love to read more
about the T2 tech details of the animations/morphing. The T2 effects have
been getting * alot * of exposure in just about all of the video trades we
get here. The Los Angeles `nuked' sequence was done on a Mac by 4-Ward
Productions (they also did the oscar winning effects in Aliens and the
Abyss). They used Electric Image animation software and started with a six
foot photo of `LA before nukes' and then cross faded into a 3D computer
model of downtown LA. They wrote a custom `explosion' program called
Mini-warp, that controlled the speed and distintegration of the computer
model. There were also gravity and fragment size variables added into the
Mini-warp routine. The animation elements were rendered at film resolution
to registration film prints.
I personally feel, that we've only scratched the surface with 3DS and the
PC and it won't be very long before we'll see 3DS stuff winding up in
future pictures like T2. – Greg
There's even a piece on morphing in the April '92 issue of IEEE Spectrum
magazine. No mention of 3DS, though.
Here ya go:
Cinefex
P.O. Box 20027
Riverside, CA 92516
Issue number 47 is the T2 issue. I can't find a subscription card in this
for more info, but if you want to place advertising, you can contact Bill
Lindsay at 213-202-7132, according to an ad at the back of the mag.
– Jack
Eli and jack. Thanx for the mag info. I think I have a copy of the IEEE
Spectrum around <dig, dig>… I'll contact Cinefax directly. – Greg
A recent issue of Time Magazine talked about ILM and Terminator 2. It also
said that they were currently working on a film animation version of the
book Jurassic Park. It should be incredible, Spielberg is directing. The
folks at ILM say that it'll be "10 times as hard as Terminator 2". Can't
wait until this one comes out.
I've been wondering myself why 3DS isn't really a mainstream motion picture
graphic application. Everyone seems so busy with their Wavefront and
Silicon Graphics equipment. Maybe release 2 was just the kick it needed to
get it into some serious usage.
Aaron
I have the same feeling Aaron. The new additions are pretty great. I'm
definately spending my fair share of time getting use to all the new
goodies <and I hadn't even `mastered' the 3DSr1 features yet>…
With the selectable resolutions, 3DS has always had the capabilities to
render at film resolutions. Perhaps these new features will make H'wood
take notice that there is an alternative to their normal `megabuck' visuals
using other platforms and animation software. – Greg
Believe me Greg, without going into details, Hollyweird has already taken
notice of 3ds and is considering using it for more "major" projects!
It will be extremely interesting to see what these folks come up with using
3DS2 (as if the CD isn't inspiring enough!) – Greg
The way I see it, Hollywood has GOT to start using stuff like 3DS,
especially when you compare prices of other platforms. 3DS, even including
all the external stuff you need to get out to tape, plus the system, still
doesn't amount to a wavefront or silicon graphics machine. Unless the
movies are so incredible that they're gonna pay for themselves, no one is
going to throw millions of dollars into animation.
I have a fear though, that because the technology is becoming so readily
available, almost every other movie that comes out will have some sort of
computer animation. The animation is only as good as the person who makes
it. If you're not an artist, just because you have some paint doesn't mean
you CAN paint.
Aaron
I agree 100 and 1 percent Aaron. The PC is the * least * expensive way (at
least now with the introduction of 3DSr2) to get a quality animation down
to either tape at NTSC rezs or film rezs.
I also agree with you that just having an animation platform available does
not make one * an animator *… (I look at my `stuff' and still feel very
inept and `ashamed' at my lake of creativity at times). I look at modeling
and animation the way I viewed the DTP explosion a few years back. When
everyone had jumped on the DTP bandwagon, I had never seen such a dirth of
pathetic looking laser generated DTP documents. What is needed (in both DTP
and animation) is that creative flare. You can go to as many seminars and
training sessions as needed; if the creative experimental juices just won't
flow, it becomes apparent in the final animation or document generated. The
resulting response is just another yawn from the viewer… – greg
I agree with you on your comments. However, there is a way to substitute
for lack of artistic talents: teamwork. Many animators may work in a
vacuum, but I compensate for my lack of (or insufficient) production and
artistic talents by teaming up with experienced video producers/writers
etc. In this way, the animator can be a somewhat technical/mechanical sort
of bloke as long as his art director supplies the specs/storyboard. What do
you think?
This is true. The animator CAN be used as just a tool for the creative
people who no nothing about the technical end of it. I hardly think that
it would be satisfying for the animator though, he would just sit there,
and do what he's told. With a director beside him, he'd be modelling and
constantly saying "like this?" "like this?" If he never had the
creativity to work alone to s start with, this might be a dead end job for
him. Also, this kind of "teamwork" takes much longer to produce a final
project. The director must be constantly conveying his visions to the
animator, who may or may not know exactly what is wanted. If the animator
IS the director, you skip the middleman, so to speak, and get right down to
business.
Aaron
Aaron,
Well, I could see an application in the movie industry for working out
parts of the script. Using a story board, you could position various actors
and object, then preview to get an idea of all the interaction. I bet you
could reduce a bit of the cost of movie production with an fli of various
parts of the movie.
Ken ///
Ken,
Re: Movie production, you're definitely right. Thunderheart, for
instance. 3D Studio is a hell of tool for a director.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Hm.. That's quite an interesting prospect. Perhaps 3DS previews will
replace traditional storyboards<g>. Really, though.. it seems like quite
a task to recreate live action in 3ds. Even if it is just a preview, will
people be made of boxes or cubes and the like? or will they look like
actual people. What about scenery? colour? I guess you could go as in
depth as you wanted to. I know that imaging/visualization programs (not
necessarily 3ds) have been being used for a while in the dance industry or
whatever it's called. All complex choreography is done using first the
computer, then teaching the dancers, such as in Michael Jackson's many
videos.
Aaron
Boy, that makes 3D Studio an even more attractive package. Actually, I
have simulated the metal man reflection in 3DS version 1, but still, the
movie looked much better. In some scenes, they had reflections of other
reflections that were reflecting the surroundings. Looked a tad bit
complex to do in 3ds, but I guess MUCH more doors are opened with release
2.
Do you know where I could get ahold of Cinefex magazine and what specific
issue discussed this? I'm really interested in making accurate animated
reflections.
Thanks. Aaron
Take a look at message #12031, Aaron.
– J
At NCGA, John Berton of ILM gave an excellent presentation on the computer
animation of T2. Like Gary mentioned, Raytracing was out of the question
due to time constraints. Instead, they made good use of environment maps.
Although, they did take it a step further and use custom environment maps
that had anywhere from 6 to 9 sides. These custom maps allowed them to add
the "Artistic" effects, like the reflection of the helicopter pilots face
on the T2000.
No offense, but how did you think they did those shots? With a raytracer
hooked up to a real-time 3D Scanner? 😎
-MM
I kind of realized the stupidity of my question after I asked it. The
reflections in the T1000 were obviously done by mapping, since it was all
live stuff that they actually shot. It's still pretty cool that they can
take live video and turn that into an environment map. They would have to
figure out the exact angle to shoot the video from to make the realistic
maps. This is what is hard about doing it in 3DS. If you have, say, a
reflective sphere (for simplicity), and there is another sphere moving
around it, what would you use for the reflection map? Just a 2D ball
moving from one side to the other?
There are some other complexities about it, like you have to actually
render an entirely seperate flic to use as a reflection map on your
original flic. This can take a load of extra time, although probably not
as much as raytracing.
Aaron
Hey Aaron, 3DSr2 has AUTOMATIC environment mapping! You don't have to do
ANY of that manual stuff. It makes it very easy to get ANIMATED
raytrace-like effects.
– G
Automatic environment mapping. What'll they think of next? <g> I'm dying
here. I gotta get me release 2. All the new features I've heard about are
things that I've spent weeks doing in release 1. The entire starfield
thing, water, a whole load of other stuff, that could have been done in
seconds with R2. I have a chance to work on some wavefront stuff this week,
so I'll be constantly comparing it to 3ds, release 1, at least. I'll let
you know what I see, maybe some new ideas for release 3? (I know, you
probably don't even want to think about it<g>)
Aaron
Aaron,
3D Studio release 2 can handle the reflections automatically. In
addition, you can set the number of levels these reflections are calculated
to, so that reflected objects reflect reflected reflections (chuck wood?).
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Couldn't automatic reflection mapping be considered a kind of "ray
tracing"? Granted, the program doesn't use the algorithm of calculating the
path of each ray of light, but it must use something similar to develop the
automatic mapping, no?
Aaron
Aaron,
I'd actually liken it more to a camera view FROM the object that
shows the reflection. You start with a map of what it sees from that
location, and distort according to the shape of the reflecting object. So,
I guess it's essentially one view, whereas ray-tracing involves many views,
and perhaps takes into consideration more aspects of how light is
tranmitted.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
I guess you're right, but the overall output looks somewhat
indistinguishable from regular ray tracing, unless you're doing something
really complicated. For example, ray tracing handles refraction as well as
reflection, and I don't think 3ds does refraction at all.
Aaron