#Cave/Underground Stream
12 messages in this thread
While checking out a small limestone gorge nearby, I found an opening in the
side of the wall about 5' high and 2' wide. On a whim, I walked to the other
side of the gorge and found a similar opening. I'm no geologist, but what
I think I found is an old underground stream that ran perpendicular to the
existing gorge.
They caves/holes seem big enough to crawl into, but I was wondering what
I was getting into. Does anyone have experience with caving? What
should I watch out for? How far in can I go without worrying about air? I'm
scared of creepy-crawly things, so how can I make sure bats or whatever
haven't set up a home.
Joe Hayes
I'm no expert on caves, but I believe most are formed as a result of various
sorts of underground water activity. I don't know if you would classify all of
them as streams. Most are in limestone simply because it dissolves easily.
Cave advice, don't go alone, let others know were you are going, a map
coordinate is best. Don't go down if it looks like rain. They had some
drownings back East on just such an occurrence. A cave can flood with rapidily
moving water. Bats yes they can be there. The caves in New Mexico, Carsldab I
believe are noted for their large and assorted population.
Hi, Joe–
A spelunker, Glenn Baddeley (CIS 100236,3030) from Australia appeared here
some time ago looking for other cavers on CIS and not finding any that I know
of. You could try CISmailing him to ask advice – I do not know how often he
looks in here.
–Doug
………Todd gives good advice. DON'T go in alone. Carry several flashlights
and a candle. Gas buildup can be a rather lethal problem. (A candle
extinguishing might be a tipoff!) MAKE SURE you have at the very least a
spotter. (Someone who can run for help instantly!) A buildup of methane (not
too likely in your area, but a possibility!) will NOT put out a candle flame.
(Unless the explosion does!) ALWAYS wear a hardhat. LOOK AT THE FLOOR!!!! Don't
step into any dark spots. Now that you're thoroughly frightened, you *ought* to
be!!!! Contact a spelunking club if you can. Cave exploration is second only to
old mine exploration in danger!!!! Also carry something like a crayon. Remember
Tom Sawyer????? In all of the rock mags and books I've ever read, the general
rule is, DON'T DO IT without an expert along. Caving is not for the
faint-hearted, or the unwary… It is a killer. Also carry a rope, your broken
leg MIGHT be able to get out if you do. Your area MIGHT have a vast natural
resource, with lots of 900 foot dropoffs. REALLY!… Think twice, plan ahead.
Carry food in case all of your flashlights fail.
Personally, I limit my spelunking (I'm not an expert!!!) to about 20' into a
natural cave, 10' into a mine. (And since I've repeated my experiences here
already, I won't do so again. Email me if you need to.) The LAST step in the
Palermo mine is a major OOPS, followed by an indeterminate swim…. if you
catch my drift….. Sometimes, you just don't get out of the drink…..
Caving is cool. Bring a friend. Bring a candle. Bring LOTS of equipment. The
life you save WILL be your own!!!!!! DON'T just wander in. You might never
wander out. I'm serious. Cave exploration can lead to big bucks. It can and
WILL mostly lead to, ummmmmm, termination of the first explorers. Enough
said??? Get expert help………..Of course, here is a good place to
start…..(G) And of course, NEVER go caving alone, unless you've been really
depressed lately. Y'know?
In your area (Ohio), you might encounter a rattler or two in the first few feet
of the cave, they're relatively uncommon. Of course, in your first aid kit, you
*DO* have a snakebite kit, huh? Not a problem. (Welllll, problem! Remove venom.
Run like hell to hospital anyway!) Other creepy-crawlies in our area aren't a
problem. Just nuisances. A few copperheads, but they aren't really cave
dwellers. Other'n that, *REAL* creepy-crawlies start in Virginia or so. And
points west of you. The major hazards aren't creepy crawlies. The REAL hazard
is Mother Nature. She can and will kill……….STAY OUT OF CAVES and MINES!
Unless you know what you're doing, and are willing to accept the risk….JD
OK, mom <g>. I'll ask someone in my rock club to go with me.
…by all means. DON'T cave alone. I almost learned twice (!!) the hard way at
Palermo, NH. Mines and caves are best explored by groups with equipment. (A
buildup of CO2 can be quite as lethal as a rockfall….. And *NEVER* peg rocks
at barrels. I *almost* did once, and didn't. I later learned that the barrel
was filled with *aged* high explosive.) I violated all sound advice on rock
hunting several times. The cardinal rule is to not go alone. (Caves or not!) I
survived Palermo twice by not going into the shaft. I later learned of the
vertical dropoffs….. I went alone into Maine and in spite of a compass, maps,
first aid kit, etc. etc., got lost for *hours* on Deer Hill, miles from anyone
at all. I survived Cobalt, Ont. *only* because I saw the blasting caps (very
old and hence unstable) before they saw me (G). OK, in caves, you only have to
worry about dropoffs, not blasting caps, but the message came to me load and
clear. A broken ankle miles from help can spell trouble. DEEEEP doo-doo! Also,
in mine/cave country, it pays to carry a big stick to probe ahead of you. There
are numerous areas in Bancroft (or nearby) that you can't see what's 3 feet in
front of you from underbrush. Things like 100 foot dropoffs…….. And we
haven't even GOTTEN to the cave yet. I dunno, maybe I'm getting conservative in
my old age (G) but I would like to *have* an old age…….JD
Joe
We just got back from a visit to Carlsbad Caverns two weeks ago. In addition to
points already mentioned, a couple of things the rangers emphasized. Carry in
water to drink, it can be hard work, and bring three INDEPEDANT light sources
(matches, candle, flashlite etc).
Ranger told an interesting story about a photographer who had hiked into the
cavern with an assistant and a substantial quantity of photo equipment for a
morning session shooting the formations. btw the cave was "developed" and had
been wired with electric light by this time. They had made it to the area of
formations and were just finished setting the cameras up when the generator at
the surface failed. Blink! No light. I think the ranger said it took them until
evening (several hours anyway) to hike the mile or so out using a nearly full
box of matches the assistant just _happened_ to have along. Each lit a match
and held it while the other used the light to hike forward until it burned out.
They leapfrogged along and made it to safety with many matches left, but whew!
-Russ
Much of the advice you have recieved on this thread is good. Please don't use
the "crayon" or any other device and / or implement of destruction on the cave.
It won't be considered "art" for many millenia yet. Proceed slow with common
sense. If your not comfortable with "walling out" the cave system on your
first trip in don't feel obligated to do so. By the way the odds are very
unlikely that its a stright shot from one side of the mountain to the other.
The two entrances / exits are most likely not part of the same system. BTW
people who pursue the sport seriously, refer to it as "caving / cavers" and
greatly disdain the term "spelunker / etc."
Enjoy,
Victor
.
The two "holes" I found are on opposite sides of a gorge/ravine.
Both aren't very wide (you almost have to walk sideways) or very
tall (you have to crouch), but judging from the echo, seem big.
Is echo a unit of measure? <G>.
Joe
I haven't done caving but at my brother's cave in Missouri, but seeing your
mention that you =don't= want to bring a crayon along, I'll chime in here and
add that it's not real cool to urinate or defecate in the cave, either, if you
can contain yourself. We went in with another brother after he'd been consuming
much beer, and deep in the cave found himself considerably frustrated.
"Leave it as you found it." 🙂
Hi, Victor–
Drawing marks on cave walls is gauche; so what is the best way to make your
path findable? A huge roll of string on a stick? A pocket full of objects one
can leave behind and pick up again as one is returning (if one leaves by a
different path, they would remain as litter, but at least they are not as hard
to remove later as markings)? A camcorder with playback viewer? Taking notes
as to landmarks seems to unreliable unless there is some sort of systematic way
to distinguish those which are otherwise too similar or ambiguous.
It might be too expensive, but a bundle of those chemiluminescent glow sticks
could serve as both emergency light source and excellent markers. Different
colors could distinguish side excursions from the path of fastest exit in
emergency.
This is the first I have heard that "spelunker" is out of favor. What about
professional speleologists? Do they like to be called "cavers" also? Outside a
cave, "caving" seems a good term, but inside a cave, I might prefer to call it
"spelunking", as the other is a little too close to "caving in" for comfort. 🙂
This reminds me of the discussion in this forum about some liking or disliking
the term "rockhound". At least "caver" covers the same territory as
"spelunker" (as far as I know), but I know no other simple term that obviously
includes all the people who might be called rockhounds (and if there were,
likely some would dislike it, also).
–Doug
Hello Doug:
<Drawing marks on cave walls is gauche; so what is the best way to make your
path findable?> If the system is a known one there is most likely a map of it
somewhere. If a map can not be found you can produce your own as you explore
the system. Most maps are produced at a "grade III" level of accuracy, which
employs the use of a measureing tape and compass. A bearing (or asimuth
depending on your compass of choice) is taken usually down the center of the
passage to the next station with a distance measured between stations. notes
are taken in a field book as to bearing and distance between stations, with
walls and other pertinant features, speleothems, stream paths, escarpments, mud
banks etc. sketched in as you go. Stations are usually marked temporarily with
survey flaging. After taking the time to map a system at this level of detail
the team doing the surveying becomes very familiar with the cave and the
general trend of the joint sets the passages occur along.
<This is the first I have heard that "spelunker" is out of favor. What about
professional speleologists? >
Its not so much that the term spelunker is "out of favor" but that the term
caver is apparently the one favored by the individuals that have discovering
the more significant cave systems in recent years. (ie. Lechegea (mis-spelled)
in New Mexico near Carlsbad) to each their own I supose 🙂
Victor