#What's new?
23 messages in this thread
Hi John, am I right in assuming that this PAR card can output
.fli/flc files to a regular VCR ? thanks Mark how much is one of
these cards ? I hear this is high-end stuff.
The PAR does not output flc/fli files, although you could "simulate"
that effect. What it does is take a series of rendered 24bit .tga
files, turn them into a motion jpeg file (which is also 24bit color
depth), and then play this motion jpeg back in real time to a monitor
or vtr or whatever you've got cabled to it. You can also render
directly to the PAR from one or more (networked) PC's. This is,
essentialy, a digital disk recorder. Instead of recording on tape,
it uses a hard disk to record and play back animation. I don't have
a PAR since I'll be going with Matrox's MAX (similar system but uses
SCSI so you can array HD's and get less jpeg compression=less
artifacting), but everyone that's got one really likes it so far. The
PAR goes for @ $3000 with dedicated HD, $5000 with TBC card for
real-time rotoscoping (video capture). The MAX goes for $6000-$7000,
but includes a high-end frame buffer that you can use in 3D Studio to
view your rendered images on a video monitor. You supply the fast
SCSI II controller and HD.
John:
>> The PAR goes for @ $3000 with dedicated HD, $5000 with TBC card
PARdon me for jumping in, but the TBC lists for less than $1,000, so even at
list price the full system is under $3,995, not $5,000.
There is a big difference in $$$ between it and the MAX. I'm waiting for the
MAX to start shipping so that we can do some real comparisons.
Greg Pyros
>>the full system is under $3,995, not $5,000<<
I remembered that price from several other messages, guess I was wrong <g>.
>>I'm waiting for the MAX to start shipping so that we can do some
real comparisons.<<
If you're going to make a sales case based on how much less the PAR
costs than the MAX, I don't think you're going to serve your
customers, or either product very well (I'm not saying that's what
you're doing, but that was the tone I inferred from that message).
I don't think the PAR can be compared to the MAX price-wise. The MAX
comes with the Illuminator Pro, which costs as much as the whole PAR
package put together, incl. HD.
In a full videographics setup the PAR is no replacement for a
framebuffer (no DVE, no Inscriber, etc…), so you'd have to add the
price of a frame buffer (Illuminator Pro, ATVista, etc…) to the
price of the PAR. Also, the PAR will not have the option of a disk
drive array, which is possible with the MAX.
The output can, of course, be compared fairly, but I, personaly,
cannot accept any comparison between the two based on the argument
that the PAR is cheaper, because it really isn't:
PAR w/TBC @ $3,995 + Illuminator Pro @ $3795 = *$7,790*
MAX with Illuminator Pro @ $6000 + 1gig fast SCSI II HD @ $1000 +
Adaptec 2742 EISA controller @ $399 = *$7,399*.
Let's not compare apples and oranges. In the end I think the two
occupy different market niches. Those who don't need the
capabilities of a dedicated frame buffer, or the option of arraying
disks are better served by the PAR, which does not offer these. Those
who do will go with the MAX, which is a more complete videographics
solution, rather than dedicated animation recorder.
Since the PAR has been out for almost two months now many have
experienced the ups and downs of its performance. As far as
animation is concerned I would find nothing to complain about. As
far as frame grabbing from live video with betacam SP Y/C input my
customers have found nothing to complain about. I can see some
artifacts on long VHS input though. When the MAX finally does ship
it will have some tough challenges to meet with its cost differential
to the PAR and the A-65. When I listed all the features of the PAR
and its street price to have those features and then compared to the
MAX and the street price to have the same features I found a much
more complicated system at roughly three times the price of the PAR
from a multitude of suppliers. The PAR only required two suppliers–
HD and DPS. I support the Greg's sales approach because I do not
print my own money, I do not have unlimited funds, I must justify
every expense with a ROI followup, and I while I respect those that
fear the mention of "street price" on this forum I find comparisons
based on MSRP worthless, ludicrous, and an exercise in fantasy land
economics. I do not disagree with your reasoning to buy the MAX
system, especially if you already own the Ill pro, the EISA platform,
the proper HD controller, then you might be in a good position to
acquire the balance for the MAX. Those of us who already own a
targa+, or AT Vista would be wasting our money on a MAX system. I
agree that the PAR does not replace the frame buffer but I can tell
you from experience that the PAR can serve as a convenient substitute
to view test frames from your editor, or keyframer. Frankly, John,
If I had the budget for a MAX, I would have strapped myself a little
bit of financing for an A-65.
My quote, which you re-quoted, was:
>> I'm waiting for the MAX to start shipping so that we can do some real >>
comparisons.
What did I say to get you going? This is a simple statement, same as
I said when the Pentiums were about to start shipping. Besides, you
don't need a frame buffer with the PAR. A 24 bit VGA card works fine
with it, for both 3DS and paint programs. The rest Don Landis
covered rather well in his reply to you.
>>PAR w/TBC @ $3,995 + Illuminator Pro @ $3795 = *$7,790*
MAX with Illuminator Pro @ $6000 + 1gig fast SCSI II HD @ $1000 +
Adaptec 2742 EISA controller @ $399 = *$7,399*.
If your going to assume that someone looking into the PAR
doesn't already have a framebuffer that they're happy with, and being
that you added that additional cost to your figure, then I think you
should assume that someone looking into the MAX doesn't have an EISA
system already, and you should add the cost of a new system to your
figure for the MAX, Not to mention another $1k for the second drive
if they plan on utilizing the disk array option. Anyone who is going
to be spending that kind of money and is looking for all the
abilities that the complete MAX system seems to offer should have the
intelligence to check ALL the options and if they're nearsighted
enough to fall for a sales pitch for a system that does not fill
their needs, then they deserve what they get.
Greg – Has anybody tried to compare the PAR's quality to the SuperMac
Digital Film compression board (the newer 60 fields/sec model) for
comparison regarding compression artifacts?
We're playing with rendering flics in 3DS and taking them through the
MAC with Debabelizer and outputting via the Digital Film to Hi-8.
When we get some stuff we like we'll try to take the targas over
too. Its a little labor intensive\ but the equipment is free. (g.)
BTW the INSIDE 3DS is truly a good one! Congratulations to everybody
involved.
Carlton, Send some of that "FREE" equipment on over. Do I have to
pay shipping? <G>
Carlton:
Not that I've seen, maybe DPS has a comparison. Dave?
Greg Pyros
>Not that I've seen, maybe DPS has a comparison. Dave?
>Greg Pyros
To all:
We are a not a company that traditionally does comparison sheets as products
change so fast now that many of them are not worth the paper they are printed
on. My understanding is that the only competitive review of DDR type devices
is coming out in the next months AV Video.
While articles like this have some bias, I dont find an easy way to compare
products in this type of forum without flame wars from the opposing camps. But
I think we can agree on certain things in the DDR wars as facts.
1. The PAR is targeted at the Animation market. Not Non Linear Video Editing.
2. The PAR uses a standard ISA bus that most customers prolly have.
3. The PAR has Beta-cam and MII outputs standard.
4. The PAR can rotoscope for $995 in additional hardware.
5. The PAR is shipping.
6. The PAR might not be for everyone.
7. The PAR, like all products can be improved and is not perfect.
Maybe we can compile a FAQ on the subject with "facts" that both sides agree on
to de-policitise this issue.
Dave
DPS
Hi Dave:
I have really put the PAR through a bunch of rush jobs in the past 4 weeks and
I must say if you guys were to be graded I'd give you an A- on the hardware.
Your grade suffered from an A+ for two reasons. As an engineer I automatically
worry about any hardware that generates lots of heat. The PAR does that!
Also, The remote box connector adapter was not built to market but looks like a
quick fix to an engineering screw up. I'm referring to the coiled cord
arrangement. These things are obvious and will cost you credits in any good
magazine review. The heat problem is more involved but the cord should be
resolved immediately.
Your PAR.exe software is another story. I'd give you a C for effort but even
though the PAR.exe works most of the time it sure does hold your fine hardware
back in true performance. If I want to select 450 files from my network target
directory where I also have 4-5 other projects rendered with a similar quantity
of files each it takes me at least 10 minutes to manually select just those
files for porting to the PAR. The other problems you already know about and
have promised better software in the 2.0 release.
Don,
I concur with your overall assessment. In my configuration the PAR itself
doesn't seem to generate that much heat but the Micropolis certainly does. I
just mention it because a system can get pretty warm and one might conclude
that it is the PAR when it appears to be the Micropolis. Overall the system
gets warm so it may be difficult to distinguish which peripheral is actually
generating all the heat.
I was also annoyed about the YUV connectors, which instead of being the robust
type which the AMIGA has, its the plug in DIN type. I would prefer the BNC
connectors as they are definitely more rugged. Not a big deal until you have a
problem. In a crisis I could re-solder the BNC style but not the DIN type as
that would require replacing the connector.
Did you have to buy a break out cable for access to the GPI trigger?
-JE
You may recall when I received my PAR I got one of their a la carte shipments,
ie. They sent the PAR board with a Micropolis spec sheet in the main box the
next day the manual arrived via Fed Ex. then the day after the software
arrived, then the day after that the cables arrived, then I discovered the
undocumented way to format the drive then a week later I received an updated
software that contained the formatter built in. I got the cable with the GPI
trigger in one of those shipments. The cable I did get talked into paying
extra for is one that I can't use yet. <G> It is for I/O of betacam component
on the TBC IV. I understand this must be used with the option card which was
supposed to be out this month. Low priority right now since Y/C works pretty
good with the TBC IV. I think this cable also supplies GPI interface for the
TBC IV effects but haven't had a need for that yet either.
YUV on the Amiga??? This is a new one on me. Care to elaborate?
The Heat thing is definitly the PAR board. TBC IV too! I used a TEL-TRU
contact thermometer to take some direct measurements. degrees F.
PAR: 132
TBC 4 128
Micropolis drive 108
Targa+ 115
Measurements were taken on the aluminum plate and on the surface of the drive.
The targa+ used to be the hottest board in the system. FWIW I have an IDEN TBC
in my other computer and it runs at a cool 90 degrees. Years ago in
electronics 101 I remember the prof giving a lecture on circuit design and how
heat can be used to evaluate good design. Generally the hotter the design the
shorter the life of the circuit.
I have three fans in all my systems and am from the old school when it comes to
cooling. I am considering a redesign of my PAR setup to include cooling fans
on those boards. I'm just a cooling fan-atic! I thought I'd say it before
Greg P. fires up his humor on this
issue <BG>
BTW I had some temp. readings on a Seagate 1239A drive when it was new and it
was 125 degrees. About a week before it croaked it was at 170 degrees. I
figured it was about to go so I backed it up and a week later it was all
history. <g>
Don,
I should have known that if anybody would find out where the heat was coming
from you would. <g> Your setup is different for a number of reason including
the fact that you have the TBC. In my system the temperature is approximately
the same as the Targa, but they are into two differet systems. I find you
temperature measurements very intersting none the less.
I also got the same lecture about heat. A relationship between heat and
efficiency.
In my case the Micropolis is hotter than the PAR, and the PAR is warm but not
hot. FWIW.
YUV is my shorthand for Component. CAV isn't accurate either.
I don't see anything wrong with 3 fans, and if somebody wants to make a joke
about it, there's little merit for it. If I could fit them in I'd probably do
the same, although with two they see to run just fine.
My cable doesn't seem to have a separate lead for GPI. Its supposed to be in
the cable but there's no lead for it.
I will say I'm very glad I didn't get my system a la carte. I would have found
that very frustrating. I had major problems because of the Seagate, that was
frustrating enough.
-JE
>>YUV is my shorthand for Component. CAV isn't accurate either.
So tell me, what on the Amiga is Component? I use a Toaster on occasion and
the owners keep telling me it only does composite. I think there is an adapter
to convert Y/C to composite though.
After looking the definitions up in the glossary of video terms, a section in
the Professional Communications Systems, Inc. Catalog, I find the use of YUV
for the most part on this forum inaccurate. I like PCS' glossary because it is
very detailed and updated with every catalog release.:
YUV is Luminance and color difference signals for PAL systems. Y, B-Y, R-Y.
YIQ is Luminance and color difference signals for NTSC systems. Y, B-y, R-Y.
Y, C1,C2 is the generalized set of color difference signals Y is luminance,
C1 is the first color difference signal, R-Y and C2 is the second color
difference signal B-Y.
Y, Pb, Pr (the b and r are subscripted) is the designation used in the SMPTE
standard.
CAV is a simple acronym meaning Component Analog Video.
Y/C A set of two signals made up of luminance and chroma where the chroma is
at 3.58 Mhz. as in the "S" video set or at 688 Khz as in 3/4 Umatic dub.
The above should be of interest to all forum trivia collectors,<g>
I have found the use here of YUV interchangeably with NTSC systems when to be
correct it should be YIQ. In the interest of communications I have found
myself using the YUV term incorrectly. Who knows, maybe PCS will update the
definition in next years catalog to mean both NTSC and PAL. <G>
BTW my three fans are at PS exhaust, Input to cabinet pressure, and CPU
heatsink fan.
I would have loved to see the rack mounted system Paul L. designed. I was
especially interested in his cooling engineering. Didn't he have 5 systems in
a rack and 10 racks or something like that?
In the mess I received from DPS I got a cable like the one you described too.
I complained and they said those were sent out by mistake. You should contact
them and they will probably send the correct one with GPI trigger Fed EX. I
finished a job yesterday that the client wanted portions of the 45 second
animation at 15 FPS and 10 FPS. It was a simple thing to accomplish using the
GPI trigger and insert edit mode of the 3/4 Umatic deck. The edits with GPI
and the 5 second preroll were accurate to the frame. It was such a pleasure to
grant this peculiar customer request while he waited. Thanks to DPS, and Dave
White for the new HEX file! Can you imagine what would have been involved in
the old Diaquest days?
Don:
>> I thought I'd say it before Greg P. fires up his humor on this issue <BG>
Who, me? <bigger G> Thanks for saving me the typing!
Greg Pyros
Hi John,
->the PAR itself doesn't seem to generate that much heat but the Micropolis
->certainly does.
FWIW, I run alot of Micropolis drives, and they all run _real_ hot. I've got a
pair of dual 550mb scsi drives in a Unix server at work and they *cook*. The
folks at Micropolis tell me this is normal operating temperature. Between the
drives and the CPU it's like a little Coleman stove. <g>
-Heinz Schuller
Fly By Nite Studios
Heinz,
I got the idea from the Micropolis people that the drives running hot was
normal also. The exhaust from the Computer can keep your feet warm in the
winter. <g>
-JE
Heinz,
PMJI,
Regarding the DPS Par units, isn't it possible to mount the Micropolis Drives
"Externally"? or won't that work with the PAR?
I'd Suspect that would help in the heat department.
Also I thought I saw someone mention that they had an "External" Box for the
PAR and wondered if the VT-2600 Personal TBC IV could also be mounted in the
Same External Box…
Anyone Know?
Also I've seen ads for a 3Gig Micropolis drive is that an IDE that would work
with the PAR?
Thanks in advance, Murph'
James, Heinz
Dan at NorthWest Tech makes an external box for the Micropolis which works
great. He frequents the forum but if you can't find him I dig up a phone
number.
TedB
!^NavFont01F0007MGHHG8EEAFE
Hi James,
->isn't it possible to mount the Micropolis Drives "Externally"?..
I don't have a PAR (yet! I hope my wife doesn't read this <g>), I was
commenting on my experiences as systems administrator and programmer. I have
several 486 pc's running unix with Micropolis drives in various configurations.
By now you've read Ted's message that there is an external box available. I
think that would probably help them run a little cooler. The heat hasn't
concerned me too much, I've found them to be pretty rugged drives.
-Heinz Schuller
Fly By Nite Studios.
Hi John,
Very interesting, thanks for going to the trouble of giving me good details for
this card.
thanks!
Mark Schneider
Montreal, Canada