#Toaster Killed?
29 messages in this thread
Just read something really depressing in Desktop Video World – the
review of the Video Machine, a "Toaster Killer" for the PC and soon
the Mac. The DVEs are supposedly better than the Toaster's. Of
course who knows about the new Toaster, and the VM is more expensive
than the Toaster, but not by all that much, and as soon as there's a
reasonably viable alternative I bet the masses and everyone else, led
by the Pied Media Pipers, will march off to Windows.
Have you noticed how the Amiga Angle columnist in DVW is relatively
above the fray, discussing actual solutions for Amiga users, while
the Mac and Clone columnists are spending all their words thrashing
it out with each other as to whether the Mac or the Clone will be the
king of DTV, not even acknowledging the existance of the Amiga? I
wonder whether their cavalier arrogance and condecension won't soon
be mirrored in real life.
Someone disagree with me! Paul
I have heard the phrase "toaster killers" ever since the toaster came
out. Mostly they come from PC and Mac people trying to talk down the
Video Toaster.
You got it, Richard. Over on GEnie, another user reported that a PC owner
was going around telling everyone that the CGI in "Babylon 5" was done on
a PC, not an Amiga. Bald-faced disinformation.
I heard everything from they were PC's, to Macs running toasters. When
the magazine Broadcasting did a article on the show, they said the show's
SFX department "created a video toaster" to do the effects. I faxed them
that same day to point out their error. BTW in this weeks issue of
Broadcasting they have an interview with WB TV exec Dick Robertson. He
said prospects for a B5 series look very promising.
Richard -> via the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot
Hey, even Spielberg's getting in on the Toaster act. Check out the showbiz
forum in the Television section.
Paul,
I saw the Video Machine. I can tell you that its DVE is *not* better than the
Toaster; unless they have improved things greatly, its limited to very basic
moves.
However, it has other things in its favor that could trash the Toaster. It
includes TBCs on-board (or doesn't need them). It includes an editor in its
functionality as well. Not sure if audio is included, don't think so.
Basically, you get what many would consider to be a more functional machine for
a little more money. If it works as advertised, it will certainly be a better
value than the Toaster.
Jonathan
I wouldn't worry too much about it Paul. Until that company actually releases
the so called "Toaster Killer" it's just vaporware. Others have claimed their
board could beat the toaster but once you started comparing the features, video
quality, and price, they don't even come close. Besides, I'm sure NewTek is not
sitting around waiting for others to catch up. I'm sure they have a few
surprises being worked on now. They know that they have captured a good share
of the DTV market, and I bet they want to keep it that way.
As I mentioned, John, the Video Machine has been shipping for a couple of
months now. As far as NewTek not sitting around, I would think they're
frantically trying to ship the new Toaster4000, which was clearly not quite
shippable at NAB, but close.
The Video Machine and the Toaster can be compared on the hardware level, but
the software is completely different and the positioning is different. I think
they will both do well.
Paul.
Hmm the video Mqachine shipping for a couple of months, were suposed to be
a dealer for it, and have not been able to receive one yet..
Forrest
I would worry about it to the extent that there may be PC owners who
imagine that just by waiting a few months or so they'll be able to add
Toaster-type capabilities to their machines. And so they forego possibly
jumping to a Toaster system. This kind of vaporware marketing has occurred
before. Anyone remember all the hoopla in the Mac world over the "Video
Explorer"? It was going to be the first big Toaster killer. Well, that was
over a year ago. Where is it and what does it do?
FYI: In the latest issue of Videography, Christopher Kohler (ex-Commodore) has
written an excellent article on the Amiga's position in video (and the whole
market really) right now.
Regarding the Video Machine, which I've seen shown at numerous shows (it was
"launched" but not available NAB April '92 believe it or not), it has only been
shipping for 2 months, but when I first saw it (4/92) I said "uh oh – Toaster
for PC." It's price seems high (around 4,000), but then, consider that it has
2 built in time base correctors, and its DVE effects are definitely smoother
than the Toaster. The bundled software is really a timeline editor, allowing
transitions and DVE's along it. The Toaster however has much flashier effects,
and most impressive, is Lightwave of course. Video Machine has nothing like
that. The Toaster4000 is very well done, taking good advantage of AGA. The
one feature I'm glad they added is the alpha channel. It looked great.
Getting back to Video Machine for a moment, they have a Mac version also, by
the way. While the product seems good, I really don't think their marketing
will be anywhere near as good as NewTek's, which has been nothing short of
amazing.
Paul.
There's more to the Toaster than effects. Most Mac 'o philes an clone
heads don't know that. The other significant point is that you an only
use so many effects before the audience begins to forget the message and
focus on the production values. I'll bet the VM becomes more mulit-media
then Video. Is it supported by or going to support industrial/pro time
code editing such as Amilink, TAO Editizer (a PC program BTW).
Remember, Matroxx was heralded as a Toaster Killer too. It was
interesting to see their booth next to the Toaster at NAB. They had 7-8
people sitting in the demo area whereas you most times couldn't get by the
NewTek booth on the 3 aisle sides due to the throngs of people standing to
see the Toaster 4000 put throuhg its paces. And they werenb't all current
Toaster owners either. Lota Yves-St. Laurent/Aligator shoe types making
notes and requesting info pacs.
The only thing I see on the horizon as a potential Toaster Killer
(although there may be alternatives that come along) is wimsy and
instability at CBM. NewTek are a bunch of smart cookies when it comes to
marketting and building a product (isn't that the order it happened in
;^} I saw them looking over the competition both to the system and
individual parts (like CG and 3D prorams…) so they are unlikely to get
burnt by a competitor on any platform.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I've seen the Video Machine. It's true, the Video Machine's DVEs are finer
resolution than the Toaster's.
A couple points are in oder here. First, the Video Machine will not, repeat
not, 'kill the toaster'. Even if it does some things better, unless they were
to make an Amiga version – and no plansare in the works – it shouldn't impact
the Toaster much. And in fact, since the overall DTV market is growing rapidly
– both companies/products should be able to do very well. As for DTVW platform
specific columnists – they are there to act as platform evangelists – but not
to slam the others. In fact, sometimes I would expect them to hit their own
markets when they see problems. They are editorial pages after all. One of the
most interesting aspects of publishing DTVW has been the reaction of platform
specific people to the other platforms applications and accomplishments. Some
simply are amazed – 'I had NO idea the Amiga/Mac/PC could do THAT!'. Others
take the NOT INVENTED HERE attitude, and shrug off anything their platform
can't/doesn't do. The majority of people who read DTVW seem to be interested in
the overall DTV technology,, and are eager to learn about what is out there to
get the job done. My opinion is that wider exposure of these applications – and
what hardware/software combos are available to them – is very useful. Lou
Wallace Desktop Video World
I wasn't criticizing your magazine – I like it a lot. I was just worrying
about the phenomenon I've observed of so-called "killer" applications
migrating from the Mac and the Amiga to Windows – ala VistaPro, Photoshop,
etc – or becoming duplicated on Windows. Since unique and powerful
applications like these are among the reasons that people purchase Macs
and Amigas (or so I assume) their migration to Windows leaves people with
fewer reasons to purchase a Mac or an Amiga instead of a computer to run
Windows. And Windows has become a powerful juggernaut. Why develop
anything for the Amiga (or even the Mac) when there are so many more IBM
clones running Windows out there?
I have a large investment of time and money in my Amiga, and I like the
machine and hope to continue with the platform for years to come. But I
also like diversity in the industry. So it isn't the Video Machine per se
that worries me – it's the flocking phenomenon wherein most people will
(in my experience) purchase IBM clones and Windows _without_ considering
the options if there's even a hint of a way to do what they want on
Windows. I don't mean to say everyone is like that – "most" leaves room
for thousands or even millions of people. But it seems to me that as more
and more developers move to Windows, platform diversity is becoming an
endangered species in the computer industry – despite the fact that there
are more PCs than ever.
Paul
Those are good points Paul. I too worry that the Amiga (and even the Mac) could
be eclipsed by the sheer numbers of the Windows juggernaut. But if that happens
– and I don't expect that to be true in the near future – what would be the
result? basically – we would still have the applications we need…. just less
room for hardware/OS inovation. And thats what I worry about…
BTW – the Fast Video Machine does handle audio…. its basic system includes
audio and video editing, including machine control.
But it doesn't have Lightwave – and for that matter neither does anyone else
but NewTek!
Lou
Lou,
What is the price of the Video Machine?
-Jonathan
Video Machine is list $3995. Sounds high compared to Toaster, but remember
that includes machine control, audio, and TBCs. As Lou said, however, doesn't
have the wonderful Lightwave (or any 3D) software, however.
Lightwave, to many people makes VT. 4k does sound like alot. I heard it
takes more than one slot. Does it take over a PC? Can I get one and
still have my other peripheral cards? I only have 2 slots left in my 486
at work. My Amiga has 4 left!
-Jonathan
Well Jonathan, the last thing I'm on here to do is plug PC products like the
Video Machine! I think it takes 2 slots, however. As for taking over, I don't
think so, since it runs under Windows. I think if you're interested, you
should check with them directly.
Amen to your comments.
Over in the Multimedia Forum I've been conversing with a guy who says he
has a friend interested in a Toaster-like board. He asked specifically
about Matrox Studio for the PC. I replied, saying nice things about the
Matrox and more nice things about the Toaster. He came back saying his
friend likes the Toaster but is bent on getting something for a PC. I
replied, "The right tool for the right job." A Matrox Studio rig (or
something else for a PC like the Video Machine) in fact may be exactly
what that guy needs; however, the point here is that he isn't considering
a purchase in those terms. He's considering it in terms of: I need
something like a Toaster and it *has* to run on an IBM compatible! Also,
to him, money apparently is no object. He'd pay 10 times what a Toaster
costs to get Toaster functionality, just to stay with a PC clone.
Nevermind that a Matrox will take over an entire machine; he can afford
it.
So, reverse snobbism rears its head in the DTV market! On the one hand the
Amiga gets dumped on because as a platform it's more expensive compared to
IBM clones, but in the above case cost has no real bearing on the purchase
decision — and in fact a more expensive solution may be seen as
inherently "better." It's ironic!
Also, we got into a bit of a dust-up because I compared a high-end Amiga's
rendering speed favorably to a fast 486 system. Guy comes back and says he
knows someone who rendered an image both "on a Toaster" [sic] and on a
486, and that Lightwave 3D was "four times" slower than whatever rendering
software the friend was using on the 486. I don't think so, but there are
so many ways to go wrong in these kinds of comparisons I doubt he'll
listen to reason.
No matter what else happens, real "desktop video" users will find the
Toaster a good deal for some time yet to come. If you run a production
house and deal in six- or seven-figure budgets, the Toaster has some
competition, now. But the Toaster still has a market niche the others
haven't yet cracked, namely: If you're on a supertight budget and the
Toaster software is right for your needs, the setup can't be beat.
IMHO, the Toaster's biggest competition will be WITHIN the Amiga community
with boards like Opalvision.
Actually, 3D Studio is quite a bit faster than the shipping version of
LightWave. It's tough to compare, but if you try, you might be surprised.
Rick Rodriguez was once working on a "3D shoot-out" between Amiga and PC
rendering programs, you might ask him about this in the Imagine vendor section.
First, I don't think NewTek has anything to worry about within the Amiga
community.
Second, I completely agree with your point about Toaster being ideal for those
on a tight budget, and so does NewTek. They stated at NAB that they're trying
to define a new low end term of Personal Video Production. With their
effective marketing, they might just do it. That is, they're not that worried
about being considered a high end tool. That's smart on their part. Matrox,
Avid, ImMix etc., are all trying to tout themselves as broadcast quality
solutions, and in general, they don't cut it.
You say that if Windows eclipses Amiga and Mac that there won't be hardware
innovation. First of all, let's face it, that's already happened in terms of
volume. Apple is trying to maintain marketshare by aggressively dropping
prices. Second of all, with Alpha, MIPS, Pentium and PowerPC platforms moving
forward, I think the platform (price/performance) battles are far from over. I
must say I can't believe how slow Motorola is going about bringing out the
68060, but maybe it's because they're so busy with PowerPC. It would certainly
be unfortunate for us involved with the Amiga if it becomes an even smaller
player, but right now it seems as if Toaster is the only thing that will make
the A4000 sell in any significant numbers in the U.S., unless Commodore gets
VERY aggressive on price. Interestingly, A4000's seem to be MUCH cheaper in
the UK!
Regards, Paul.
Paul,
As pointed out a few months back regarding this same subject, the biggest
reason most people buy a mac/PC is that is what is used "at work" and they
can therefore have access to all that "free software".
SPelling it out, the platform that is most popular is the one whose
software is most plentiful and most easily pirated. The PC CLone market
has a BIG head start here, unfortunately…
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
Aaa-men! Call me a cynic, but I also believe the main reason people buy so
many PCs compared to Amigas or the newly-affordable Macintoshes is that they
can rip off all the software they need from the office.
Blaq!
Charles,
If I had a dollar for everytime I heard about "all the free software I can
get from the office" I'd have at least 10 full-blown Toaster Workstations
by now.
wmc – via Autopilot!
The only thing worse than the software from the office is the software from the
school which is why the office has the PC in the first place! Educational
discounts are great (I an a teacher myself) but it needs to be made clear that
the educational site license ends when the student is no longer a student!
Gary Dunlap : Wyrd Software
: It just works like magic!