Emplant
32 messages in this thread
I'm very interested in the Emplant board, my concern is the price of the
rom's. The best I have found locally is $400. used. This seems kind of out
of whack, but then I don't have any idea what they go for in the real
world. Any suggestions ???
Eddie.S
Eddie,
You DO NOT need the ROMs. What you need is access to a Mac II or IIx
so you can create a disk image of the ROM. Emplant comes with a Mac program
called ROMINFO. You need to transfer ROMINFO from the disk that comes with the
Emplant to a Mac formatted diskette. You then take that to the Mac II and run
the ROMINFO program. It will create a disk image of the Mac ROM. You then
need to transfer the rom image onto an Amiga formatted diskette and copy it
into the Emplant directory on the Amiga.
The mechanism for doing all this is to use Amax. If you don't have
Amax you probably need to find someone who does. Alternatively, if you have
something like Mac2Dos you could do the same thing. Emplant also has the means
to READ a Mac disk through the Sybil hardware. It's also possible that the
latest Emplant software may be able to read and convert a Mac disk to Emplant
format.
Steven,
What you are suggesting, copying the contents of a ROM to disk, is
illegal.
-sja
Steve,
I didn't suggest anything. I merely told him what was required in
order to use Emplant. The suggestion was made based on the directions which
come with Emplant. According to them it isn't illegal to make an archive copy
of the ROM. Nevertheless, that is precisely what all Emplant users ARE doing.
How they obtain the ROM images or under what legal or illegal conditions is
their concern. I merely conveyed the message.
STeven,
Actually…archival copies of a ROM are questionable since by can't
recreate the ROM. But in any event, an 'archive' copy is just
that…something that is put on the shelf just in case the original ever
dies. It certainly isn't something that may be used along with the
original.
The courts have also taken a very dim view of those that don't do the
actual copying…but provide instructions and/or software with the intent
of encouraging someone to make an illegal copy.
Don
Steve:
The ROM is considered software and thus can be copied for archiving. As
long as the either the original ROM or the archive is not being run
simultaneously, there is nothing illegal about it. That is a brief
summary of how it was explained to me mixed in with a bunch of other legal
mumbo jumbo. Apple has already inquired on the Emplant and has elected
NOT to do anything. Apparently, UU has done some extensive
investigating.
-Jonathan
Jonathan,
Yes — but you can't just go out and "find" the ROM somewhere. To legally
archive you must own the original.
There are alot of MACs around. I use one at work and when I get the
Emplant (currently have AMAX) I will use the ROM image from my MAC at
work. Obviously, I won't be using both at the same time!
-Jonathan
Jonathan,
Unless you _personally_ own the Mac it is a copyright violation. Same as
taking (non-original) software from work to use at home (depending, of course,
on the license agreement applied to that software).
Actually, under the software license agreement, you can lend the software
but when returned the copy must be destroyed. You and I both know
however, that ROM images will run rampant in the software pirate world.
-Jonathan
Jonathan,
There is specific language dealing with ROMs in the 1976 amendment to the US
copyright law. For details I'll refer you directly to that rather than my
attempting to paraphrase it.
I believe you… I don't have to look it up. Everything I do or will do
is legit. You know very well though that it (ROM image) will begin to be
shared among the pirate hacker type people. It may be happening already!
-Jonathan
Jonathan,
Of course it's happening today — it's been happening for years — at least
since the original Mac emulator (Magic Sac for the Atari ST) was released.
Acknowledging the theft, tho, doesn't make it any less of a theft.
I think that not JUST the PIRATE HACKER poeple will be copying ROMs. Or
are all poeple who copy ROMs PIRATE HACKER POEPLE?????????????? You make
it sound as though the dividing line is a ten foot wall which is never
crossed. I think that The PIRATE HACKER is in the minority and that the I
can't afford because I want so much person is the majority. Then there is
also the look what I've got person who wants to do a good deed and gives
the I can't afford it because I want so much person the ROM image. Then
the I can't … person gives the PIRATE HACKER person the ROM image
because he wants something from him. Or something like that.
Don't quote me on that as it sounds like a "I know because I dunit!"
🙂
Sean.
Johathan:
They probably elected to ignore it for now because they don't expect
the impact to be big enough to be worth the lawyers' fees. If it became
wildly popular and started businesses buying A4000's specifically to get a
cheaper and faster Quadra, expect them to roll out the big cannon, I
think.
Apple wasn't even very friendly about the use their actual ROMs by
purchasers of them, but seem unable to stop dealers selling them like used
parts… as long as they are not blatantly burning copies. That does mean
a Mac motherboard presumably gets taken off the market for ever set of
roms sold as "scrap", which is good for their business too. Then there are
the dealers who somehow sell new "spare part" roms, but Apple is demanding
they send back one bad part for each new spare rom now.
Thinking about all that, what are the chances every owner of Emplant
will run out and buy a set of legal system 7 roms? I beleive it.
Next stop: 386/486 module for Emplant. Guess what IBM did to Taiwan
importers who copied their roms? Not a problem though? I think if you want
it you should get it set up NOW, and so should I.
Tom
Tom:
Actually, they have not ignored it.. they just have chosen not to do
anything about it. That may change if people in the MAC community take
notice and start switching however.
-Jonathan
That is an angle I had not really thought out: current Mac users switching
to A4000/Emplants. Considering they are only equaled in their blind
devotion to an undeserving master by us Amiga owners, it seemed unlikely.
Tom
I too doubt that MAC users would move over, but I am sure some would. A
review in a MAC magazine however, might grab some attention.
-Jonathan
I wouldn't think that the 386/486 Emplant would have any problems with ROM
legalites. There are lots of clone BIOS chips out there, sold directly to
folk upgrading their clones.
I want to see the sparks fly when (if) they do Nintendo or Sega emulation.
🙂
-Jim
Yeh. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Sega or Nintendo (or
both) use custom chips designed specificallyfor accellerating games.
Wonder how easy that is to emulate?
Tom
Bull ca ca….they use a base CPU like a 68000, a custom graphix chips,
and a custom "langage" chip. Ever take one apart, they are simple.
If they make a mod that can use those chips, we're talking light speed on
those games.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers – Flying high on AutoPilot
Has Emplant released a DOS module yet or is it still only Mac? Will it use
a ROM image or will it require a 386/486 chip in it? If just a image what
kind of speed performance could be expected from an 030?
Nick,
Utilities Unlimited "expects" a DOS emulation later this year, but I
wouldn't count on it until it arrives. It will NOT require a 386 CPU, but it
will require a ROM image of the DOS bios. How fast it will run is anybody's
guess at this point, but it is logical to assume that it won't be any faster
than the speed at which the Amiga is running. All of this is based on
information from UU, so until the emulation is available, I wouldn't speculate
on what to really expect. It's all pure conjecture, other than that they say
they are working on the emulation for release later in the year. However, the
Mac emulation is still evolving and new emulations will probably not appear
until UU is satisfied that the Mac emulation is stable.
The emplant is currently only mac, thought they do have plans for a IBM
module.
Clones don't really use a rom the way a MAC or Amiga does, so really all
they have to do is emulate all the processor functions. But that is what
it is, emulation, and can never be as fast, expandable, or compatible as a
bridgeboard.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers – Flying high on AutoPilot
Only Mac, DOS emulation late summer.
Ben, Leigh's Computers
Ain't never took one apart. Are the Graphix and language chips soldere
in?
Tom
Hmm…I dunno, depends which game machine your looking at.
Elite MicroComputers – Flying high on AutoPilot
Steven,
I'm surprised that Apple hasn't come down VERY hard on the producers of
Emplant. Copying a ROM as you've described is quite illegal.
Don
Don,
I just report 'em, I don't make 'em! Emplant's docs provide this
information and suggest that what is required and the way it should be done is
not in violation of any protective laws. It's my assumption that the intent is
that the Emplant user own the Mac from which the ROMs are downloaded. Making
such archival copies is not, apparently, a violation under those circumstances.
Nevertheless, that's what the docs say and apparently Apple hasn't taken any
action against them, as of now. I'm not personally familiar with the regs to
comment intelligently on the proscriptions contained therein.
Steve,
Part of that is true…making an archival copy is legal…(again, the
issue of a ROM clouds it a bit…but for the moment, let's ignore that).
But by definition, an archival copy can not be used other than to restore
the original.
It doesn't matter if the user owns the Mac or not…the software can't
be installed on two machines at one. So unless the user wants to remove
the ROMs while he/she is using the Emplant…they're in violation of the
Copyright laws.
Don
Don,
Well, I don't know whether that's true or not. Nor do I know under
what conditions using the ROM image on the Emplant is legal or illegal. All I
know is what is needed to use the Emplant other than using ROMs, which is also
possible since the Emplant has sockets for ROMs. The EMplant instruction
manual includes instructions on inserting the ROMs in the sockets on the
EMplant board and how to dump the ROM image onto disk. Emplant is not my
product, so, not to belabor the issue any further, please don't take me to task
about this. I didn't do it!! Whatever Emplant requires, there doesn't appear
to be anything they suggest the user do which THEY considered to be or
determined to be improper. If it is, then you need to tell Utilities
Unlimited, not me.