#reply
7 messages in this thread
>GVP no longer provides customer service for any of its products.
WRONG. The only difference is that you can't call TECHNICAL SERVICES
DIRECTLY. It has changed to a dealer support voice line. GVP Technical
Support is still available by fax, letter, and Compuserve.
>experience straange technical problems that are not covered in their menu
>then you are SOL unless you'd care to write them a letter and wait for a
>few weeks until the reply comes back.
WRONG AGAIN. Technical Services responds to all correspondence within 3
business days, and most all within 36 hours. If it takes WEEKS, then that's a
problem with the US MAIL SERVICE. Of course, if you have a problem then you
should be contacting your supplying dealer first. And if your response is
"well I bought it mail-order and they won't help me," then that's something
which you'll have to take up with the dealer.
>Then, if there is a requirement for
>you to gather data for them so further diagnoses can be done, you loose
>antoher few weeks in the mails etc.
This is why you should provide the details UP FRONT, so further
correspondence is not necessary. If you provide enough information initially,
then it will be MUCH easier to provide an answer, no?
>All I'm trying to do is find out if they lost my ImageFX registration. A
>simple phone call, leave a message on voice mail, yeah or nay return call
>- simple. Right? Forget it.
It seems that you never tried to call the CUSTOMER SERVICES DEPARTMENT, which
is the place to contact for such information. By the way, your Image FX IS
registered. It was entered on 11/30/93. It says that you bought it from TS
Computers on 9/17/93. If you are trying to call the Technical Support
department for this information, then you are in error. The Customer Services
department can be reached at 610-354-9495, and simply follow the prompts
regarding tradeups and upgrades. You will get to a Customer Services
representative.
>GVP has the money, they could care LESS if
>you get upgrade notices, or if you are registered or not. They do NOT
>want to hear from you ever again.
I won't even bother…that's just your OPINION.
>A customer I consulted for could not get his
>Spectrum card working. The dealer was scratching his head. Tried calling
>GVP – phhht! Forget it.
If it is a DEALER, then they should have the PHONE NUMBER to reach Tech
Support directly. If not, then he should send a fax so that we can verify that
he's in the database and he is then eligble to contact Tech Support directly.
>The guy said, "hey, I've got a business to run. I
>don't put up with this crap from any of my other vendors or from the PC
>and Mac software suppliers, I sure as _____ ain't gonna put up with it
>from no 2-bit Amiga company. Take that back and come back with a 24 bit
>board that works and doesn't have 'GVP' written on it." He's happily
>running a Picasso II, all for the want of a warm human voice.
More power to him. Let's see what's available in another 2 years or so…
>Now that GVP is a "PC compatible" company, they like Gold Disk,
This shows how mis-informed you are. The ONLY PC product that GVP makes is a
genlock. Does THAT automatically make GVP a "PC compatible company?" I don't
think so. The vast majority of our business is the AMIGA and will continue to
be so, unless something really catastrophic happens to the Amiga.
>Or perhaps they are under the grave misconception that this is how the
>"big boys" do it. It's obvious that they have never seen a vender
>qualification check list at any reasonable sized company. Reliable, fast
>support is evaluated as high as reliable operation. And the world of
>Clones is a world of choices. Who is going to choose to buy software and
>hardware products from a company that will not talk to you?
You are, unfortunately, not taking into account how the Amiga market has
drastically changed over the past 2 years. Ever notice the ever-shrinking
number of Amiga hardware manufacturers? The market has shrunk, and GVP could
no longer afford to have 6 techies on the line for your beck and call. We've
also had over 10,000 letters and faxes since last JULY, and guess how much time
that takes??!? The Amiga market couldn't support our large staff and we have
had to cut back dramatically. If you think that we're the same group of people
that were here 3 years ago, then you're wrong. If that's your assumption, then
you're "living in the past" (I am a Tull fan). I am sorry, but I do take your
message personally because I've been in the Amiga market (in sales, repair,
tech) since 1986 and my point of view is from the INSIDE. You are on the
OUTSIDE, and you do not know what goes on inside a company when your major
market is on the verge of evaporation.
I also want to note that the last call from you on record is from November
18, 1993. That's over five months ago. Why are you bitching TODAY???
My thanks (and apologies) to everyone who sat through this rebuttal. I happen
to take great pride in the Amiga, and my job. If someone is going to deride me
and my work, then I feel that I must respond in strong terms.
GVP TECH
Problem with mail. No sirreee. Knowing the problem with support by mail,
a company that decides that that is the primary support channel shows its
disdain for professional and serious amature users of their products. Can
your business afford 3 days mail, 3 days internal processing, 3 days
return mail to get your phones restored if they go out? your power? your
UPS service? How would you feel if ANY of the goods/services your
business depends on DAILY gave you that choice? If your honest you'll
admit that you'd feel you weren't very valued as a customer. And, as so
often is the case, it takes a couple of back and forths to get on the same
page and understand what is really the root problem (never mind the cure),
by mail you've lost over a month of what could have been accomplished in
15 minutes of conversation. Your assumption that ALL the details can be
supplied up front is unbelievabley niave and a ridiculous argument.
Please don't insult your own intelligence by making such lame statements.
I am trying to make a serious set of points based on practical situations
not unrealistic lawyering cliches.
I didn't buy it mail order. I BOUGHT IT FROM YOU AND YOU WON'T TALK TO
ME! The dealer I bought a few ROM upgrades and memory from is out of
business. And to my knowledge, you don't give specific training, recurrent
training and regular technical bulletins to your dealers. And dealers
sell such a variety of hardware and software, one cannot rightly expect
them to have the expertise that the manufacturer has. Additionally, many
dealers I have asked certain questions of regarding things as basic as the
proper set-up of the cache/burst/fastom enabling sequence (not adequately
documented as, when you still provided phone support, it took one of your
tech support to tell me a problem with crashing was due to following the
defualt install disk startup when a different sequence was required…)
68040.library revision, and ROM releases that may fix certain more
"exotic" bugs or compatitility issues with 3rd party software/hardware.
Thanks for the information on how to get to customer service. I never
would have guessed it from the menu. When I tried to navigat the menu
Igot to a "have your credit card handy" area and immediately hung up.
Didn't want to have to PAY to find out.
Anyway, I'm not picking on you personally as I'm sure whether or not you
agree with the policy you prbably have little or no say-so in continuing
or changin it. I should apologise if I sounded harsh. I'm not
particularly overrought about it, but it has some elements that seem
absurd to me.
1) the density of and training of dealers does not make them an adequate
source of support for users of your products. (You haven't got the market
penetration of Microsoft, Borland, IBM or Compaq).
2) There are people who depend on your hardware for a living. It is
possible for a person in this situation to experience a problem that would
be costly enough at a 3 day turn-around, but at a multi-week turnaround
would be devastating. (Remember, many of your professional users are
going to be small operations running on a shoe-string).
3) If you just added a voice-mail with 24 hour call-back for the non-CIS,
non-FAX equipped people, I think your goal of reduced phone support
overhead, but effective technical support would be realized. I believe
without this change you are going to start to see your products, for which
there is competition from companies that still have phone support,
experience a slow fall-off in sales.
I bought the first SCSI controller you had, and grew in controllers and
accelerators right along with you. I am loyal to companies to the point
where it is unhealthy for my company. That is part of why I am tellling
you this. I am planning on adding a 4000 with an accelrator/SCSI for
another Toaster to the two I have. I wouldn't have even considered the
"other" 4000 accelerator had not this change in the tech support
arrangement come up. If it looks like the support for the other board is
more 'instant', they get the sale. Has your management considered how
many other loyal GVP users like me there are out there who would rather
switch than fight the phone menus?
Thanks for checking the ImageFX registration for me, and again for
illumining me on where customer service warm bodies live in the phone-pak
jungle. (Maybe they could add that tip to the menu description, "upgrade
information and customer service..")
Hey – we LIKE you guys – that's why we want to be able to TALK to you! :^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
>Problem with mail. No sirreee. Knowing the problem with support by mail,
>a company that decides that that is the primary support channel shows its
>disdain for professional and serious amature users of their products. Can
>your business afford 3 days mail, 3 days internal processing, 3 days
>return mail to get your phones restored if they go out? your power? your
>UPS service? How would you feel if ANY of the goods/services your
>business depends on DAILY gave you that choice? If your honest you'll
>admit that you'd feel you weren't very valued as a customer. And, as so
>often is the case, it takes a couple of back and forths to get on the same
>page and understand what is really the root problem (never mind the cure),
>by mail you've lost over a month of what could have been accomplished in
>15 minutes of conversation.
Sir, if the Amiga market were as lucrative as it was a few years ago, we could
afford to have 6 techs on the line again. At one point, we were getting over
several hundred calls PER DAY. (And not jsut on GVP stuff… people who need
general AMIGA help were calling! 'bridgeboard help' 'toaster help' 'keyboard
help' … the list goes on!) When there were5-6 people, it was hectic but
bearable. With 3 or less, forget it: it was completely unmanagable. I
personally had days where I had up to 150 calls, and that's not including the
FAXES I have to answer! I defy you to do the amount of work that we were
doing, while keeping your sanity. Something HAD to change. Since GVP sells to
dealers/distributors only (with VERY few exceptions), and since dealers were
complaining that they couldn't get through to us, they got the top priority.
If you think that mailing takes too long, then send a fax. And don't complain
that "I don't have a fax" because there's always a Kinko's or a 7-11 or some
little place that has a fax machine from which you can send a fax that DETAILS
your problem and asks GVP to call back because you don't have access to a fax
machine!
>Your assumption that ALL the details can be
>supplied up front is unbelievabley niave and a ridiculous argument.
HARDLY. We would like to get as much info as possible initially. All too
often, we see "I have a GVP card and it doesn't work. Tell me what to do."
Does THAT MESSAGE tell you ANYTHING about the problem? or the board? or even
the system??? THAT is the biggest problem that we face: a lack of information
from the outset. We don't expect EVERYTHING, but we do require a certain
amount of info to BEGIN.
>Please don't insult your own intelligence by making such lame statements.
>I am trying to make a serious set of points based on practical situations
>not unrealistic lawyering cliches.
No comment.
>Thanks for the information on how to get to customer service. I never
>would have guessed it from the menu. When I tried to navigat the menu
>Igot to a "have your credit card handy" area and immediately hung up.
>Didn't want to have to PAY to find out.
Then you hung up before you got to a representative. We can't take the blame
for that….
>2) There are people who depend on your hardware for a living. It is
>possible for a person in this situation to experience a problem that would
>be costly enough at a 3 day turn-around, but at a multi-week turnaround
>would be devastating. (Remember, many of your professional users are
>going to be small operations running on a shoe-string).
In everyday dealings with customers, it is RARE when things take more than a
few days. It is NOT the norm. Most things get taken care of in the first
shot, unless GVP is not provided with enough information to make a diagnosis.
>3) If you just added a voice-mail with 24 hour call-back for the non-CIS,
>non-FAX equipped people, I think your goal of reduced phone support
>overhead, but effective technical support would be realized. I believe
>without this change you are going to start to see your products, for which
>there is competition from companies that still have phone support,
>experience a slow fall-off in sales.
We USED to have this, back when we had 5-6 people. Back then, it was
unmanagable because there would be nearly a hundred messages left daily. We
have 2 full-time techs, and there is no way that all the call-backs could be
made.
>Thanks for checking the ImageFX registration for me, and again for
>illumining me on where customer service warm bodies live in the phone-pak
>jungle. (Maybe they could add that tip to the menu description, "upgrade
>information and customer service..")
It does. How can an order be placed unless you talk to a human…?
>Hey – we LIKE you guys – that's why we want to be able to TALK to you! :^}
We like you too, but we're trying to keep up with a burdening workload. I
hesitated when they decided to switch to dealer-only support, but if we had
not, then I would have quit a long time ago out of frustration and anxiety.
Non-immediate help is better than no help at all…
GVP TECH
>>Then you hung up before you got to a representative. We can't take the
>>blame for that….
Au contraire, mein herr! (WC Fields or Mae West – I forget…)
There is nothing that I heard in any of the top level menus that lead me
to believe there would be a warm body at the end of any of the chains.
As for your contention regarding the availability of FAXes, I guess you
just don't get out of the city that much.
Regarding the work load, that is a managment issue. A good management
team would figure out the cost of support for each product sold and
incorporate that into the price. Don't you think that is a silly argument
becuase we sold so many of them we decided to not to support them? Your
burn-out cynism and "us vs them" mentality is showing. You should want to
talk to your customers, becuase that makes them repeat customers and
affors you a chance to find out what they might want/be willing to pay for
in product features.
Putting in a phone menu with commonly asked questions with canned answers
is a qood way to reduce the volum of frivolous calls and RTFM calls.
('Course improved manuals would do that too, like if the hardware products
came with manuals of the quality [not necessarily the volume] of ImageFX
fewer "I don't get what this is telling me" calls would be generated).
And a callback system allows you to be much more effiecient than a direct
call-in, answer In real-time system. It gives you a chance to do a little
digging, define questions you need to ask to zero in on the problem,
devise a test procedure for the person to do to see if it is an RMA
thing… and if it is a BB/KB/Floppy drive/ADos thing, you ignore it or
put it at a low priority.
And still you cling to the false idea that EVERY detail you might need as
a Tech support can be supplied on the first contact. Now, lets see, be
honest. When you were answering the phones, how many times did your first
response after Hello this is Gary (it is you, it is you, is it not) did
you ask a question of the users. Whenever I called, you guys always asked
several questions about things, many times, so esoteric to the problem
that I would not have guessed they had a bearing on the situation. For
instance, when the Faaastprep Low level format was wiping out the "GVP
Ricoh Removable" drive cartridges and rendering them useless I gave
details of the messages I got, the order of the operations I tried,
everything I had hooked to the card and all the stuff run from my SS. The
first question asked was what rev mother board I had?!? The next question
was how long was the cable. Then there was did it have 25 conductors in it
or only 18? I never would have guesse you needed that informatin based on
a problem that manifested itself after FaaastROM changes and Amiga O.S.
upgrades. You see, there is no 'checksheet" for the "everything' to give
you on a first contact. Problem solving takes discussion, not lecture.
Discussion is a two way phenomenon. You have confirmed that GVP's goal is
to not have discussions by taking one party away from the table.
>>How can an order be placed unless you talk to a human…?
A touch tone phone, a credit card and a menu of products. Isn't that what
is at the end of that chain? You had me fooled, evidently, since I sure
thought thats where I would end up.
BTW, many organizations rotate engineering staff through tech support, or
have tech support people who just take the V/Email/Faxs and distribute
then to an "appropriate" engineer to work them. The idea is that no small
group of people shoulder the entire burden of dealing with the after sales
support. It also helps engineers and designers better understand thier
market.
Anyway, my 2cents to you isn't going to change it, so, let me just say
good luck and hope it works for you andnot against you (you as in GVP).
'Course, the C= situation may make this a moot discussion anyway.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
I noticed that you mention "Gary" as the name behind the GVP_TECH
account, and I want to let you know that it is not I. There are a number of
individuals in the Technical Support department that share that account, but as
you can see above, I have my own.
I understand your reasons for complaining about the lack of live
telephone access to Technical Support, and while I don't agree with all of
them, you do make your point.
The original intention of this Forum was to provide online Technical
Support and access to information regarding GVP. I would like to try to keep
it on that topic… I have heard what you have to say, and I appreciate your
honest opinions.
Sincerely,
Gary Nush
Product Manager
Great Valley Products, Inc.
Gary,
I was guessing – nothing intedended, just that your name was one of the
most frequent I've seen up here (and actully, the only one I could
remember). Chris set me straight in the call this morning.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I fail to see how you or anyone could be a "professional and serious amateur
user" and not have a fax. That's an essential business tool these days. If
you have a fax, you can get your info into GVP in a minute, and they'll get it.
What's the big deal? Phone support is INCREDIBLY inefficient and may be
affordable by a company in a growing market, but in a shrinking market, it just
might not be possible.