Vibrant Drivers
36 messages in this thread
It is interesting to see everyone talk about the secrecy at Autodesk. I think
that a native NT app must be in the works. You can bet your last dollar that
AutoCAD is currently being written for NT, and it seems that with today's
proper object oriented thinking, many of the modules for AutoCAD could be used
for modules in 3DS. Maybe all they have to do is a simple port of the code
(though the word "simple" is very relative) but I would not think that they
could not do that for NT. I've been out of the software engineering business
for a couple of years, so I know very little about NT's underlying structure
and demands, but I believe I'm correct in saying that NT is a bear.
The bottom line for me is that I hope they release 3DS for NT within a year.
We are undergoing a change at our office towards NT Advanced Server, NT SQL
Server, and Windows For Workgroups. The only true DOS apps we use are 3DS r3
and Rio r6.3 (and we are getting away from Rio) and it would be nice to use
just one type of operating system and not lose the processor overhead under NT
to run a DOS app.
Kenny
My problem with NT (and Windows) is the sinking feeling that a lot of
through-put is lost and memory is wasted. DOS, for all its faults, is very
stripped down and efficient in operation. It is sickening, for example, to see
how fast a HiRes QFX image transforms vs the same image in a Windows app like
Photoshop. It seems like when you have a CPU/RAM intensive application like
3DS, you never feel like giving up anything to "Window" dressing. I'm so
neanderthal, I would settle for a 32-bit, flat memory DOS.
–Noah
Hi Noah,
I totally understand your reservations about "Window Dressing", and how it
should slow 3DS down so much (and it DID on my '66). Well, you've gotta see r3
running in a DOS window on this Pentium! For all intents and puposes, it's just
as fast as DOS on the same machine! I still can't believe it, and am not sure
why it is happening, but test after test proves it. Redraws, rendering, the
whole enchilada…If you or anyone you know is running 3DS on a P5, I'd love to
hear if they are having the same results…
Just thought you'd be interested…
-Alan
"Screaming" is the only way to put it! I tried 3DSr3 under Windows
and I did not notice any slowdown (though I haven't tried any long
rendering processes.) I do know that the P5-66 we have combined with
32 MB RAM, a Viper PCI, and a PCI SCSI-2 controller connected to a
SCSI-2 hard drive with 1 MB cache is unbelieveable. I truly never
expected to have this kind of speed out of this system.
We were running a DX2\50 with 16 MB RAM, a micro-channel XGA-2, and a
Targa+32 and this Pentium system must be at least 10 times faster. In
Adobe Illustrator for example, something that took 2 hours to send
and print on our Tektronics Phaser 300i using the old system, took
only 2-1/2 minutes with the P5! This is an accual timing, not just a
guess. Needless to say, we have seen immediate benefits from
upgrading our system. If your doing 3DS, I personally feel that a
Pentium is a must.
Interesting, Kenny. Have you compared 3DS-DOS and 3DS-Windows render
and re-draw times (on your Pentium) directly? Are they close?
I never tried to run 3DS in a Windows session. How I can get
Pharlap.386? Is 64MB enough to run it at the same speed (I suppose
that your test wasn't in the background, right?) that in plain DOS. I
really can't see how it can work the same way in DOS and Windows in a
pentium and not in DOS and Windows in a 486. Seems illogical to me,
but if you say that it works I will try 🙂 BTW, I can't wait to see
3ds speed running on Chicago or NT as a native. That will be (or NOT
be 🙂 the key to forget DOS.
People seems to forget what are the real advantages of a multitasking
system (even Windoze) against a single protected DOS app. For me,
getting cut and paste, use whatever program I want in any given
moment, a common color managment system, the posiblity of dealing
with a real printing system from 3DS (althought we don't need it)…
all that features are the real advantage of 3DS. For example, make a
fast map in Styler, Painter or Altamira and "paste" it directly in
the materials editor. Or save an image and switch in a second to
another program for edition. The possiblities have no end. Even if I
loose a bit in rendering speed (which I certainly doubt with 3DS
native from the magic Yost Group -do you think that these guys could
do something wrong??? 🙂 I will save a lot in the different
production stages.
I certainly don't have any doubt that 3DS r4 WILL BE available for
other operating systems than DOS (and BTW, platforms 🙂
ana /krazy images
Everything you need to run 3DS in a DOS window under Windows is
included with 3DSr3, Ana. Just follow the directions in chapter 2 of
the Installation Guide. I'd imagine RAM isn't a speed issue until
you start to swap. Incidently, my friend Corky called me today (he
runs 3DS/Windows on a P5/90) to tell me he thinks that under Windows,
3DS swaps to the Windows Swap space, which as you know can be
permanent and contiguous. I have not tested this myself. As far as I
know, Win3.1 will not allow a program like 3DS to run/render in the
backround, so no, the tests were all "in the box" tests. I must agree
that it *does* sound illogical, but it has worked on every P5 I have
tested it on so far. A friend that programed for MS says it may have
to do with DOS "op codes" that the Pentium is just *way* good at,
compared to a 486. Please try it and let me know how you fare.
I, too, love the idea of a GUI-type OS where so many things are
standardized, easiliy cut-and-pasted, and multi-tasked. The
multi-operations between various graphics programs you describe are
ones that will decrease production times, while allowing the creative
factor to flow fluently. With the speed of the 3DS/Windows/Pentium
combo, I'm experiencing a lot of them already. Until recently,
hardware that would handle this sort of versatility maintaining
decent speed hasn't really been available on the affordable desktop
platform. With all the new "workstation-level" CPUs making the PC
"scene" these days, maybe we're starting to see this change in the
near future.
-Alan
>> With all the new "workstation-level" CPUs making the PC "scene" these
>> days, maybe we're starting to see this change in the near future….
The problem is that as soon as you think you got there, Microsoft
comes up with another 200 megabytes of "new" Windows which pushes
everything back to square one. I agree with you about the advantages
of a [decent] windowed environment. It's unbeatable. The real
problem is the lack of maturity designing such systems. We'll get
there… Eventually I hope… <g>
On the other hand (totally different and distractive subject, as
usual), it's funny how people tend to push SGI's or any other Unix
Workstations as the "only" solution for real work. Though they beat
the heck out of Intel based stuff, it would take the average guy 6
months to boot the machine! It's seems people either forget that or
have no idea what is like to get a brand new Unix workstation (I just
got mine!?!?!?), boot it, install the OS, set it up, install the
software, the hardware add ons, the fricket 30 thousand little
"autoexec like" files, configuration, in other words, 400 megabytes
worth of junk just to get the machine ready to receive your first
"real program"… I can just imagine the kinds of hardware/software
problem questions those guys get. It makes Pharlap child's play.
That's very interesting stuff, Gus!
As I have never owned a Unix workstation (just worked on one a few
times), I had no idea the configurations could be so complicated.
Maybe it's built-in job security for all the (expensive) suit-fellows
companies can't seem to get rid of after making a big workstation
purchase.
I just hope a _little_ bit of maturity sneaks into MS's ability to get
a decently designed GUI/OS sometime in the future. Now that I've been
running in Windows ALOT more than ever, I'm at least happy to say
that I haven't bombed it in quite some time (knock on wood). I'm
gonna take that and the apparent ability of the Pentium as a little
something to hope for…
Back in the early 80s, I remember reading the AT&T Unix manuals that
recommended that every Unix installation have a full-time person on staff who
did nothing but tweak the performance and reboot when necessary. Job security
was part of the design specification for Unix. 🙂
Ha!
A friend's office had a coupla' Indigos running Vertigo and Composer. It seemed
*every* time I visited the office there was a suit-guy there fixing something,
or supplying "support" for the poor manuals…
-Alan
This is such exciting news, Alan. I think it bodes well for the
future of a more flexible 3DS user interface. I would love to be
able to have several modules of 3DS open at the same time, and be
able to drag and drop, and whatnot. If there is no significant
sacrifice to performance in windows, I'm all for having the two be
integrated. Especially with 32bit flavors of windows (NT, Win4).
I dialed in a series of maps yesterday in total record time! All
'cause I could "punch" back and forth between Pstyler, Cdraw, and
3DS, doing fast test-renderings at will. Quite a feeling. I can only
imagine rendering in the backround, cut-and-paste, etc…
3DS full-speed in windows is very intriguing. Particularly as I have
fallen into having windows up on a 486 while working on a Pentium! I
have read the first ten or so replies from your remark and there
definitely seems to be something to it.
We will try it as soon as we can get to it, but I'm a bit snowed now
to mess around with re-configuring 3DS. Thanks for the suggestion.
Just curious, but what are you "getting away from Rio" in exchange
for, if you don't mind my asking? We use Rio, but would be curious
to know of anything better or as good. Thanks.
We are actually using Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, and Fractal Design
Painter X2 for all of our still graphics (3D Studio r3 for our animations.) In
our current 16-bit color display system on our presentation computer, these
programs are working OK. We do still see advantages to Rio, but not for our
current setup. Rio does a much better job at anti-aliasing than these other
programs (therefore the text is clearer.) When we go to 24-bit color in the
next month or so, we might find that we have to use Rio to get the proper
anti-aliasing for video (since all of these programs were created more for
print whereas Rio is for video.) I already tried to take one graphic done in
Illustrator to 3/4" tape and then edit it into a video, and it looked terrible.
We are trying to see if there is a better solution than Rio; but we are also
just in the beginning stages of learning Rio 6.3 (versus 5.02 which is what we
were using before the new system upgrade.)
If you have any comments or advice, I would be glad to here them.
Kenny Dubuisson
Mississippi Resource Center
Kenny:
I'm a bit new at this but I've got an older version of RIO which I don't use
much but it does do excellent text as you've noted. I heard rumors of a
Windows version of RIO to appear this fall. Could it be that RIO version 6.3 is
this rumored upgrade? The product which I use for both still graphics and video
titles is Altamira's Composer. I can't give you a full comparison but there
are others here who probably could. Ted Boardman may just jump in here as I
believe he has some experience with Composer.
Bob
Rio 6.3 is still for DOS, though it is getting much better. The use
of Adobe fonts has been a very welcomed addition. We had 431 font
styles that we could use in Adobe products, and now Rio uses them
just fine. I was approached by AT&T GSL to be a beta test site for
the Windows NT version, but we just don't have the time right now.
This new version will not run on Windows classic, only on NT.
Projected (but now publicly confirmed) dates are 3rd quarter to 4th
quarter of 94 for the first release of this product.
I get the impression that AT&T GSL is really serious about
main-streaming this product (as much as possible with its specific
application.) I enjoy working with a couple of very nice ladies at
GSL who always shoot straight with me. My biggest complaint about
Rio 6.3 is it still will not recognize a SCSI scanner (it only uses
GPIB, which according to GSL, is a pain to them too…they are in the
process of adding SCSI support though they would not give me a date.)
I just make Rio work at our company; I don't use it on a daily basis.
That is our art director, and so far she really likes Rio 6.3 (it
also supports our Diamond Viper PCI video card which is nice.)
If you have any questions, drop me a note. If I cannot answer them,
our artist probably can.
Thanks for the Rio update. I have just finished outfitting my company
with a host of animation and video tools. I have an ATVISTA board
gathering dust right now as I have no room in my PC with the newly
installed PAR. Instead of Rio I've been opting for Altamira's
Composer. Windows NT is in my future plans so if I clear out a slot
for the ATVISTA I may put the new version of Rio through its paces.
So far I've got no problem waiting. It's nice to know that my Viper
PCI is supported by the new version.
Bob:
If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me where we can get info on this
Altamira's Composer that you mentioned you use. I am just the "techno-nerd"
that makes everything work, but I don't do a lot of research in the software
end (I did for animation, and we got 3D Studio r3.) I would like to give the
info on Composer to our art director.
Thanks
Kenny Dubuisson
Mississippi Resource Center
Kenny:
Altamira stats:
Altamira Software Corporation 150 Shoreline Highway, Ste. B-27 Mill Valley, CA.
94941
800-425-8264 415 332-5801
Jack Powell of The Yost Group literally wrote the book on Composer so he may
know of a source for more info if the above yields nothing. I don't know if
there is a Cserve forum dedicated to the product but it gets pretty good
coverage here.
Bob
One of those numbers should do it.
– J
Thanks for the info. We have just started using Rio 6.3 as well, but
we need drivers for our video board, as we are now only able to use
the 256 VGA driver. We have previously been using Rio 5.4, and 6.3
seems to have a little better interface, though still one that
requires a certain amount of finnesse. Thanks.
PMJI, but I've had RIO 6.3 for some time but haven't installed it. I've used
RIO since 1.0, but became disenchanted after about 5.0 or so. Is it worth the
install and did they improve anti-aliasing at video resolution or the fonts ?
Just curious. Maybe I'll install it someday <g>.
Thanks,
BILL
Well, I can't really answer your question. I have only been using Rio
for the past month or two. I can say that Rio 6.x came with A LOT of
fonts, different from 5.4 (I had to convert some older scenes), and
the fonts are pretty good. I am not sure about the antialiasing at
video resolution. Maybe someone else will chime in.
Thanks, Doug.
The 24-bit anti-aliasing is pretty good in Rio 6.3 (but it is slow,
even on our P5-66 system). We said "what the heck, it's only a $95
upgrade fee" and it has been well worth it.
Thanks for the info. It has been very slow for several years, the
video res antialiasing has become sub-standard, and the fonts are
pretty horrible – I was curious if 6.3 was better in these areas wrt
6.x. This is a shame. BTW, they *charged* you for the upgrade? I got
something in the mail which offered it for free, so I went ahead a
got it (still haven't installed it <g>).
Yea, they charged us (but it was only $95.) Plus, we were upgrading from 5.02
Professional to 6.3 Desktop; maybe that made a difference. If you are looking
for great font support, try the 6.3 version.
If you have any questions, please drop me a note. If I cannot answer them, I'm
sure our art director who uses it can.
Kenny Dubuisson
Mississippi Resource Center
Thanks Kenny.
BILL
What video card are you using? We use the Diamond Viper PCI and it works
GREAT!
I'm at home now, but I think it is a diamond card (I don't remember
which), but it was not listed in the install, and so we had to stick
with the 256 vga driver. I'll find out which card and pass it on,
maybe you can suggest a different driver.
Doug:
You have to use the Viper in VESA emulation mode. You run VPRVESA and load the
TSR which puts the Viper into VESA mode, and then you run Rio 6.3 and choose
the VESA driver. Ours works all the way up to 800×600 in 24-bit color mode
(looks great!) Just make sure you have the Rio 6.3 update and that you are not
running 6.2 (it does not support this.) If you have any other questions, drop
me a note. Good luck!
Kenny Dubuisson
Missisippi Resource Center
Oh! I also thaink we are running 6.2, so I'll check on the 6.3 upgrade.
Thanks Doug
Kenny, The card was an ATI, not a diamiond. I guess there are no drivers for
its support.
PMJI, but Autodesk has stated that R13 of AutoCAD will be an NT app in it's
first release. DOS and Windows will follow. As far as I know they will show it
first at AEC in washington coming up in June (I think June).
Dave Mennenoh