CompuServe Thread

#Copy protection?

26 messages in this thread
#147032From: Paul IdolMay 20, 1994 1:58 AM
Well, OK. But could you prove it? And if you could, then you'd be in possession of stolen goods – after all, the liscense you buy entitles you to use that single copy on one machine unless otherwise specified, which sometimes happens. Which isn't to say I wouldn't use it in an instant – I bought Brilliance and I don't want the damn dongle. Paul
#147293From: Chris LesterMay 20, 1994 10:38 PM
Backups, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, are legal. you can have as many as you want, aslong as only YOU have them. Therefore, IMHO, your "cracked copy" would be quite legal, if you have ownership proof of the original. Chris – Fast and Low on my '020! Is it significant that my spell-checker doesn't know "Intel"?
#147324From: Paul IdolMay 20, 1994 11:21 PM
How is a cracked copy a backup? Paul
#147509From: Chris LesterMay 21, 1994 2:19 PM
How is it not? Do you own the original program? Why are you not entitled to additional copies of that program? Chris – Fast and Low on my '020! Is it significant that my spell-checker doesn't know "Intel"?
#148027From: Paul IdolMay 23, 1994 12:52 PM
By the liscense – you don't actually in most cases -own- -the-program- – rather, you have a liscense to use it under certain terms and conditions. Paul
#147336From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPMay 21, 1994 12:11 AM
A cracked copy is not a backup. It is a change in the code, and therefore illegal.
#147417From: Dale LarsonMay 21, 1994 5:15 AM
False. Changes to the code may be legal. If you have a license agreement or other valid contract which says you can't change the code, then you can't. (It is yet to be seen whether shrink-wrap licenses are valid contracts.) Otherwise, the principle of fair use applies. I'm sure that making a program easier to use for a legitimate user would be seen as fair use, so there would likely be no problem for legitimate owners. For the person who cracks it, though, if they distribute a cracked version, they are definately having a problem, and might be having a problem even if they distribute just the patch. The later is a lot fuzzier, though, which is why the copier programs are still on the market. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147429From: Steve Bennett/SYSOPMay 21, 1994 7:27 AM
I believe you're mistaken but I can't can't cite case law… it's my understanding that 'cracking' the code for the purpose of "making a program easier to use for a legitimate user" falls under the protection of copyright law… basically, you would be using someone else's protected code to create a program of your own based completely on the work that belongs to someone else. Once you have done that and copied it, you have broken not only the license (by making more than one backup) but also the copyright law.
#147436From: Dale LarsonMay 21, 1994 8:50 AM
Yeah, it's asking a bit much of a non-lawyer to cite case law. I have read a lot on the issue, since it has so much direct bearing on my livelyhood, and I can't think of anything I've seen that would indicate that cracking copy protection clearly falls outside of the doctrine of "Fair Use." Maybe I'll dig through some of the articles I have here, but I'm probably too lazy… — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147367From: Don Curtis/SYSOPMay 21, 1994 1:43 AM
Chris, Actually, that's not quite true. The courts say you may make ONE archival of the ORIGINAL software. You may not make as many copies as you want (no matter who has them) nor may you crack the original and then keep the cracked copy. In addition to the above, the courts have also maintained that routine backups of your storage media (backup of an HD) is perfectly legal even though it does constitute an additional copy. Don
#147418From: Dale LarsonMay 21, 1994 5:15 AM
Is there some case that I am not aware of but should be? I haven't heard of a case that says "cracking" the original and keeping the cracked copy falls outside of fair use for legitimate users. The "one copy rule" might be something I'd heard of, but I don't remember it. Do you know of the case for that one? — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147617From: Don Curtis/SYSOPMay 21, 1994 11:26 PM
I can't state the actual case…but by stating that fair use constitutes making an archival of the *original* then by implication a cracked copy isn't an original…thus not covered by the fair use doctrine. But by the same token…I know of NO case where anyone was convicted…or even charged…by doing whatever they wanted with softwar they bought…as long as they didn't distribute it. Don
#147675From: Mr. ChalleronMay 22, 1994 1:39 AM
Stac lost a counter-suit from MicroSoft over disassembling code; and it was their own code they disassembled out of MicroSoft's product (which was why they won _their_ suit). Or did I misinterpret that ruling? Mr. C (Amiga: Muerte O Suerte?)
#147822From: Don Curtis/SYSOPMay 22, 1994 2:29 PM
Mr. C No, Stac lost because they reverse engineered the code to hook the compression routines to the boot code. Or that's the way I understood it. Don
#148160From: Mr. ChalleronMay 23, 1994 10:13 PM
Well, I couldn't make a whole lot of sense out of it anyway…. Mr. C (Amiga: Muerte O Suerte?)
#148386From: Alex BakerMay 24, 1994 7:14 PM
You misunderstood the ruling… Seems Microsoft has some undocumented calls in MS Dos. They just happen to be preloaders that allow software to load and work more seamlessly as part of the operating system. (Thus allowing MS a "little" edge over the competition.) STAC dissassembled these calls and used them to make STAC work more seamlessly. Microsoft one a point on the dissassembling and use of those calls. (Roughly it reduced the amount MS lost by about 10%.) The "amusing" part that I noticed was that MS trumpeted their "win" in the press and said they would continue their fight against piracy. They neglected to mention that they had lost 10 times that amount, for the same reason, piracy.
#147721From: Dale LarsonMay 22, 1994 4:44 AM
Here is an excerpt from the January, 1994, CACM (in the highly recommended "Legally Speaking" column — that column tends to being rather long and technical, but explains the issues it addresses in all the detail most computer people are likely ever to need): "The fair use doctrine provides a flexible and adaptable way to balance the interests of copyright ownders and of the public so as to maintain adequate incentives to produce createive works while at the same time allowing the public to make reasonable uses of copyrighted materials." "Under US law, four factors are generally considered in judging whether a use of a copyrighted work is fair: the purpose of the defendants use (whether for commercial purposes, whether for purposes of news reporting, scholarship or the like or some less favored purpose); the nature of the copyrighted work (whether entertainments or factual works); the substantiality of the taking (judged qualitatively as well as quantitatively); and the harm or potential for harm to the market for the copyrighted work arising from the defendant's activities." One of the many cases this article cites is Nintendo v. Galoob. It appears to be paritcularly relevant to whether we can legally crack copy protection. I think that the issues are very similar and that a court would find in favor of cracking based on Galoob. "Nintendo charged Lewis Galoob Toys with contributory copyright infringement because Goloob's Game Genie allowed users to alter certain aspects of the play of Nintendo video games, such as increase the number of lives of a particular videogame character. The Game Genie accomplished these changes by intercepting certain signals from the Nintendo program for which it substituted other signals. Nintendo's theory was that Galoob provided consumers with a device knowing they would use it to alter the audiovisual sequences of the Nintendo games, thereby creating an unauthorized derivative work. Galoob argued fair use in defense." "…the court decided that… Galoob made only fair use of the Nintendo works. In line with Sony [another important fair use case involving Universal suing that VCRs were going to be used to illegally tape copyrighted works]a, the court ignored Galoob's obvious commercial purpose in marketing the Game Genie. The alleged infringers in Galoob were kids who used the Game Genie to alter the play of Nintendo game sin the privacy of their homes. The court, therefore, invoked the Sony presumption of fairness because consumers were making private and noncommercial uses of the allegedly contriutorily infringing device." "The court judged the alterations to Nintendo's games though use of the Game Genie to be lesser in quantity and quality than the copying in Sony which made this factor favor Galoob's fair use defense as well. In reliance on Sony, the court thrust the burden onto Nintendo to demonstrate some meaningful likelihood of harm arising from use of the Game Genie." "Nintendo did not meet this burden because it had no plans to market versions of its games containing alterations of the sort that the Game Genie produced. But the factor that most stongly swayed the court was the fact that kids could only use the Game Genie if they had already bought Nintendo games, which meant that Galoob's device did not displace sales of the Nintendo programs." — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147823From: Don Curtis/SYSOPMay 22, 1994 2:41 PM
Dale, That is correct…and as I've said…no one has ever been charged, tried to be charged, or convicted of doing anything in their home with software they've bought as long as they don't distribute the end result. And it is true that a copyright holder must show 'harm' for them to prevail in court…but the rulings don't alter the wording in the law itself (again…my memory of the words…it's been a LONG time since I've read them). It's more a matter of a technicality rather than something folks need to really get worried about. Don
#147851From: Dale LarsonMay 22, 1994 4:28 PM
>but the rulings don't alter the wording in the law itself They don't have to. Case law is still law. It determines how the wording of the statutes are to be interpreted. I think Galoob goes further than saying that you can do anything you like in your home with software you've bought. I think that it says that you can give people the means to do it (i.e., distribute a copyprotection cracking program). — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147621From: Mr. ChalleronMay 22, 1994 12:13 AM
PMFJI here…. A lawyer I'm not, but considering the recent judgement given to MicroSoft _against_ Stac, specifically that Stac had illegally "cracked code" just to prove that they had in fact been ripped off by MicroSoft, it would seem that "reverse-engineering" for ANY reason is illegal…. Mr. C (Amiga: Muerte O Suerte?)
#147722From: Dale LarsonMay 22, 1994 4:44 AM
Stac is grossly misunderstood and misquoted. By no means does it say that reverse-engineering is flatly illegal. I don't have time to go look it up again, but I'm 99% sure that the judgement against Stac was not for reverse-engineering Windows to prove that they had been ripped off. I'm 90% sure that it was for using interfaces MS claimed were proprietary but that Stac had access to through a previous licensing agreement. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147788From: Jim Nangano/SYSOPMay 22, 1994 12:33 PM
The issue that burned Stac was the fact that their reverse-engineering activities were against Beta copies of MS-DOS, supplied to Stac by Microsoft under specific non-disclosure agreements. The "feature" that they were implementing was the "early load" of the disk compression drivers, implemented in MS-DOS 6.0, that allowed the compression to be hooked into the system prior to the loading/interpreting of the CONFIG.SYS. It had nothing to do with either Windows, nor with "shipping" software. – BobR
#147844From: Dale LarsonMay 22, 1994 4:04 PM
Thanks, I was pretty sure it had something to do with a contract between Stac and MS. I see in today's paper that Bill walked out of a recent interview with Connie Chung over a question about Stac. — Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
#147510From: Chris LesterMay 21, 1994 2:19 PM
Time to slip on my orthopedic shoes… I stand corrected! Chris – Fast and Low on my '020! Is it significant that my spell-checker doesn't know "Intel"?
#147512From: Chris LesterMay 21, 1994 2:19 PM
In retrospect, are you sureof the one copy limitation on backups? I don't think that is the way the court ruled it… rather a "hook" that software developers try to write in to their licensing agreements. Chris – Fast and Low on my '020! Is it significant that my spell-checker doesn't know "Intel"?
#147618From: Don Curtis/SYSOPMay 21, 1994 11:29 PM
Chris, Yup…I'm sure (or as sure as I can be without a court document in front of me) that you may only make one archival copy. Of course, if your original goes bad…you may restore it from the archival copy…or use the archival copy and make a 2nd archival copy. The point being…you may have a useable copy, and an archival copy at any one point in time. Don