#Karst newcomer
23 messages in this thread
Hello all,
I'm new to the science forum, and have recently been studying up a lot on
geology. I'm reading a ton of different books right now (and would be
interested to hear what "real" geologists think of authors like Rachel Carson
and John McPhee), but am mainly coming back to geology to further my
understanding of caves and their formation. I'm originally a cave diver, and
this past year have been getting more active in "dry" environs. Good basic
book recommendations are the order of the day, although I've read things like
"Introducing Groundwater" and other basic caving books. I'm a bit lost with
all the many other terms that get thrown out a lot, and have my trusty Penguin
Dictionary of Geology and Geological Terms by my side continuously.
I personally really enjoyed the 5 questions and the answers someone gave to
them today on the forum. WHether or not someone is doing someone else's
homework inappropriately, I enjoyed hearing someone else talk/discuss the
issues. I've been picking up old geology texts for precisely the same reasons
I liked that Q/A: a set of objectives; clearly defined issues and questions
and similar answers. I can read and read and read all I want, but unless I get
into discussion about it or am obliged to explain myself, I personally don't
retain.
Long intro to myself here. But I'm very much looking forward to talking with
everyone here!!
Shannon [74111,3006]
Shannon
I'm also new to this forum. I'm starting my second career but only after
working as a hydrologist for ten years. My first degree was in geology and its
still my love (sniff..hard swallow). McPhee, happens to be one of my
favoite nonfiction authors because he writes about two favorite subjects:
geology and things Scottish. For me, reading anything of his is like taking a
vacation: you see some interesting sights (and sites) and meet some
interesting people. He does a wonderful job of explaining geology, but I
really enjoy most his depictions of geologists: he sees them as masters of
"scale" — recounting births of mountains using time as a device instead of as
a given, then pointing at tiny fossils as proof — not realizing how
preposterous it might seem to those uninitiated. Geology is a "big" story and
sometimes I sense McPhee sees geology as a form of ancient storytelling
(descriptive, narrative science), a way of seeing the world that is somehow
Scotish in origin and nature. In many ways geology, as a modern science, is
an invention made in Edinburgh (Hutton, Playfair, Lyell, Geike, etc.)
Florida geology, as many have said, is subtle. IMHO, the state's springs
and mammalian fossils are the exceptions to this rule. Last time I checked
(1977) cave formation was still not well understood, though that may apply more
to non-karst formations, e.g., sandstone caves. Do yourself a favor, if you
have'nt done so already, and write to the Florida Bureau of Geology to get
their "List of Publications." This can serve as an ordering guide/index of
their reports, maps, etc. The address: Publications Office, 903 West
Tennessee Street, Tallahassee, FL 32304. At a minimum, you'll want Bulletin
31, "Springs of Florida."
One aspect of cave formation is sea level change, which is my favorite topic.
You may not have noticed (from driving around, or looking at a topo map) but
Florida is a series of terraces, each landing marking a period of time when sea
level was higher than today. There are also terraces offshore, mainly along
the Gulf coast; perhaps you've seen some of the drop-offs if you've dived
offshore (I don't dive, but friends of mine who do — or did — say these
escarpments are well known … and fished.) A little imagination reveals the
relationship between sea level changes and cave formation: groundwater level
changes, climate/rainfall pattern changes, etc.
Incidentally, my favorite McPhee story is in the collection "Giving Good
Weight." The story about the chef and his passion for cooking is wonderful.
Grab a towel before embarking. You'll perspire as heavily as he as his massive
body hurriedly waltzes about the kitchen for ceaseless hours.
Phil
Phil,
Wonderful to hear from you, and so much to respond to!!
I appreciate your comments on McPhee. I really like his writing as well as the
points you mention–bringing me into the world of geology by giving me certain
specific "people" to look at and to watch do their job. One thing I also
really like about McPhee (coming from someone with a master's in English) is
that he is a WRITER. He really knows HOW to WRITE!! One of my favorite
chapters is in Basin and Range, the second chapter I believe, in which he talks
about the wonderful "language" of geology–the descriptive words, their impact
on him, the sensory impressions he gets from them. A local cave
diver/hydrologist and I have discussed this aspect of McPhee, and this friend
also has taught me quite a bit about local geology. I have just started In
Suspect Terrain. Will keep you posted on my impressions.
Was amazed about Hutton. I'd like to read more of the "original" material,
once I feel a little more comfortable about terminology. I like your
assessment of the "ancient storytelling" of McPhee–well put. The Scottish
connection, however, I hadn't made until reading your post. I love Scotland,
and your suggestion of Scotland as some sort of organizing concept around
geology strikes me as accurate.
I do have the Springs guide to Florida, and also recently stumbled upon a book
also put out by FL Dept of Nat Resources called "Rivers Assessment" guide to
Florida, which of course includes the springs. I have a photocopy of the
springs book (no-one has seen a real copy of that around for sale in a long
time) although I have seen the original. My cave diver/geo- hydrologist friend
also recently recommended I drop by the tallahassee bureau to pilfer thru their
stuff–I"ll be in west Fl next weekend and will do so then. I was thinking of
getting topo maps and some of the yearly geo books. I do have a FL geo book
specifically on the Karst of FLorida, but it is old (and is being updated–due
out next year, I believe).
What sort of work did you do as a hydrologist? Where are you located? What is
the new job, and why the "sniff" about your first love? Isn't hydrology a form
of geology, or do you love something else more specifically about geology that
hydrology doesn't let you do? (questions, questions!!!)
Agreed on the sea level change being a great topic. I'm just now seeing
portions of what McPhee has called "the big picture" (I believe) in regards to
the formation of Florida and the sea level changes' impact on the state and on
our caves. Basically I'm just visiting a lot of Florida museums of Natural
History and paying a lot of attention to my friends who have been
diving/studying for such a long time.
Look forward to "talking" again soon.
Shannon
Hi, Shannon–
Welcome to the forum!
We have not seen any cavers here (unless Joseph actually attempted that cave he
was looking at) except Glenn Baddeley (100236,3030) of Australia who inquired
for other cavers here many months ago. Since there were none, I do not expect
he checks in here often – you might want to try CISmailing to him.
I have visited the Cave of the Mounds in WI and the Alabaster Caverns (a gypsum
cave) here in OK, and hope to try some of the MO caves while I am still in OK
(my job has me out here temporarily; I am really from CA). I see only where
the tourists go, not being equipped for serious caving. Maybe when I retire
there will be time for such things, but now my spare time is devoted mainly to
fluorescent mineral collecting. Tried UV lamps in any of those caves you have
visited? Flashlight-sized portables can be had for as little as $25 these
days.
–Doug
Hi Doug (aka. Oh Mighty SysOp!)
Well, you didn't _used_to_ have cavers here. Now that we found it, we may
never leave!
Do you know what part of Australia Glenn lives in? There are some cavers I
know living in Perth. They've been doing some caving in the Nullabor area and
the North West Territory and say it's beautiful. Kilometer after kilometer of
virgin cave on each trip. The stuff dreams are made of.
You live in OK? I'm in Western TX (Lubbock). Been to 'your' Jester Cave
(longest gypsum cave in the states) but that's about all. I've seen articles
on Alabaster. Quite a large cave.
Hmm. Flourescent lights in caves… Nope, I haven't tried that. Our
'complex' test for native sulphur remains the burn test. There is another
mineral in the Guadalupe caves that looks exactly like native sulphur but it's
composed of Uranium and Vanadium. Victor Polyak is giving a presentation on it
at the NSS Convention in Bracketville (sp?) this year. About the only thing
I've used UV for is to spot the scorpions. I'll see if anyone else has tried
that. We've done a lot of playing around with the phosphorescence of the
minerals, especially pure calcite, aragonite, and hydromagnesite. Beautiful
glows!
Rich ( <– another newbie caver. There everywhere! )
Hi, Rich–
Welcome to the forum!
That yellow uranium-vanadium mineral might be fluorescent, as a great many
uranium minerals are, making it easy to distinguish from sulfur if you have a
UV lamp handy. If you can name the mineral, I can probably give a good guess
as to whether it will fluoresce (UO2 in the formula would make it quite
likely).
In a cave, a UV lamp should be particularly good for picking out special
mineral occurrences. In Alabaster Caverns, my UV lamp found a few small spots
of bright yellowish-green fluorescence, indicating traces of uranium (or some
rare earth), picking out something less than an inch wide from the half-mile
(?) cavern.
Jester cave? I was not aware of that one; is it in the same gypsum formation
as Alabaster Caverns in NW OK?
I am not clear where in Australia Glenn lives; you will have to ask him.
Two cavers showing up in the same week strains coincidence; is this an example
of someone having to say something before others of similar interests will
start talking, or did something bring you and Shannon here at the same time? I
am always curious as to how people find this place, so we can tell what might
bring more in.
–Doug
Doug,
I'll probably spell this wrong (I don't have the name sitting in front of me)
but the mineral is Tyuaminite or Meta-Tyuaminite, depending on the hydration of
the mineral. Victor identified the MT in the lab and suspects it's actual the
former. Since the initial identification in Spider Cave, the mineral has been
found in Carlsbad Cavern and Lechuguilla Cave. Kind of helps explain where all
the Radium is coming from.
I guess we'll have to try the UV on it. Now if I can only find one in
Lubbock TX!
Jester is located in Western OK, still in the Blaine (?) Gypsum formation
that runs along the Western side of OK. There are many large Gyp caves in
that area of OK, some with huge rooms. I'm not sure if that's Alabaster or
not. I'll have to check the trip reports. Unfortunately, the Blaine seems to
dip deeper this far south and cave formation is restricted. There is one large
cave in Texas formed in the Blaine. Maybe you've heard of it: River Styx.
Ernst Kasting did the geology on the cave in "The River Styx-Salt Spring Cave
System" published by the Texas Caver Report Series.
I didn't save Glenn's number. Could you send it to me?
Coincidence? Sure, blame it on coincidence! <g> No, Shannon and I are good
friends. I was visiting her when she signed up on the Science forum and got
interested in the proceedings.
Rich
(tight crawl – stuck between a rock and a hard place)
Rich,
Glenn Baddeley–[100236,3030]. Coincidence? I think not!!
Shannon
Hi, Rich–
Tyuyamunite is listed the Henkel Glossary of Fluorescent Minerals as at least
sometimes fluorescent bright yellow-green under both longwave and shortwave UV.
Its formula shows the uranyl group (UO2) that is the activator of similar
fluorescence in many minerals, as does the formula of metatyuyamunite. UO2
does not cause fluorescence in every mineral containing it, but where one such
is found, others that fluoresce due to UO2 are likely to be found also. Thus,
a quick flash with the UV lamp is likely to distinguish this stuff from sulfur,
and might locate this mineral across a cave room of respectable size if the
visible flashlights are turned off long enough to get your eyes fully dark
adapted.
If Lubbock rock shops do not have such lamps, one way to get them would be
through Steve Ryland, who runs a mining supply shop (Cal-Gold) in CA. His CIS
address is 72345,366.
Glenn Baddeley's CIS address is 100236,3030.
Those other gypsum caverns are all news to me. Are these open to the public?
Are there any magazines for cavers? If you have subscription addresses for
such, they would be welcome additions to the GEOMAG.TXT I mentioned to Shannon.
This Texas Caver Reports Series, perhaps?
–Doug
Doug,
Thanks for the info on Tyuyamunite. I always wondered how it was spelled.<G>
I'll check around and see if I can find a light. We'll be in Carlsbad next
weekend so it would be nice to have one by then.
Thanks for Glenn's address. Shannon said she wrote him a letter but hadn't
heard from him yet. Maybe we can drag him, kicking and screaming, back into
the forum.
For access to the 'wild' (non commercial) caves, you could just talk to the
landowners for permission. However, you would be better (and safer) off if you
contacted a local grotto. There are a two in OK, the closest to you is the
Oklahoma City bunch.
Central Oklahoma Grotto
POCs
David Kowalski (405) 751-8519
John Talbot (405) 789-6944
Address
c/o Sue Bozeman
2624 Chaucer Dr
Oklahoma City, OK
73120-3407
As for Texas groups, there are groups in Lubbock, Dallas, and Graham. I can
give you those address and contacts if you'd like them.
On to publications. The National Speleological Society (NSS) publishes a
monthly magazine (NSS News) which reports on cave trips, discoveries, projects,
etc. There is a Section of the NSS specifically for Geology: The
Geology/Geography Section. They publish a newsletter called Geo2 (squared).
I'm not sure if the newsletter can be received from non-NSS members but you can
contact:
William B. White
210 Materials Research Lab
University Park PA
16802
The Texas Cave Report Series address is:
Texas Caver Report Series
Managing Editor
PO Box 17011
San Antonio TX
78217
The River Styx book was published in 1976 so this information may not be good
any more. There are NSS related book stores where you can pick up Karst
related books for very reasonable prices.
Does that help?
Rich
Hi, Rich–
Thanks for the info; I have filed it for the next update to GEOMAG.TXT.
–Doug
Doug et al,
Is anyone on-line familiar with a large water-cavern in Mifflin County PA
called Alexanders Cavern? All along I've been led to believe Penns Cave is the
only live water cavern in PA, but I happened to run across an old article from
the local paper about a cavern that was popular in the late 1930s. Seems it was
so popular that people took to damaging it by breaking off the formations, and
the property owners ultimately dynamited the entrance shut. Now only authorized
cavers can get in. Honey Creek continues to emerge from it, just as Penns
Creek emerges from Penns Cave (replete with 20" trout!)
This is karst country here in Central PA. This cavern in particular should be
middle to upper Ordovician limestone as it lies just under the area's
mountain-building Tuscarora sandstone. I'd like to find out more about it.
Hi, Ed–
If we do not hear from someone who knows, I'll try this query on the Internet
mail list rocks-and-fossils. You might want to address such queries to "all"
in the future to encourage drop-ins; I read everything in this section
regardless.
–Doug
Thanx, Doug! I realize I'm talking about a bygone era when Alexander's Cavern
was open to the public, but as I understood from the article, groups of cavers
are occasionally allowed to go inside.
It must be a mighty dedicated landowner in this day and age who has hold of an
entrance and doesn't want to exploit it for financial gain. Or am I growing
cynical in my old age? <grin>
Hi, Ed–
An owner might fear to collect admission prices when the owner might easily be
sued for any harm coming to those customers; it seems even the toughest of
waivers of liability may be disregarded by today's courts. This effect has
doubtless cost us mineral collectors a lot of sites; if collecting is a
liability problem, the owners (or their insurers) might indeed scare themselves
imagining the possibilities where cavers are concerned!
–Doug
Doug,
True. There have been all too many cases where the liability waivers were
challenged in court and revoked. It's no the person taking the risk that cause
the problems, it's the remaining family members. Case in point is the Chounard
court battle. That loss basically pushed them out of business although they
still exist as Black Diamond.
We've tried to get 'bullet-proof' liability statements with some skitish land
owners in New Mexico but all that does is limit what you (the waiver signee)
can do against the land owner. Since the lawyers seem to always find a hole in
the waiver, maybe we should start writing the agreement on lawyers. That would
make them a little more reluctant to shoot holes in them! (or maybe more if
there's another lawyer involved)
Rich
Doug,
Welcome to a huge debate, Doug. How to keep permission and access to caves in
today's "I'll-sue-you-if-you-look-at-me-crosseyed" society. I can't say how
many sites are shut down each year to cavers. I have just been informed that a
landowner (with a cave) in my area is being sued because she was drunk and fell
in the entrance of the cave. Seems she thinks these lazy, irresponsibile
landowners with caves on their property shouldn't just leave them laying around
for anyone to trip on or fall in. AARRGGHH. We'll loose this site for sure.
Collecting an admission price in Florida, though, would make the owner legally
responsible. Not collecting money is one way a landowner can further distance
him/herself from a lawsuit. But why even get that close? Why not just let
no-one have access to the caves? I understand their point, although I come out
a loser in the scenario.
Shannon
Ed,
Howdy! What kind of information do you want? I can either seach for
information myself or give you the addresses of the local grottos. Your
choice.
Rich
NSS 19715RL
Thanx, Richard. I was looking for info on a water cavern in Mifflin County PA
called Alexander's Cave. I read a newspaper article awhile back on this cave,
which used to be a popular place in the 30s … so popular in fact that folks
began breaking off the formations etc., causing the landowner to blow the
entrance shut. There apparently is another small entrance, since the article
mentioned in passing that groups of cavers were occasionally allowed in. I'd
like to find out more about this cave. Penns Cave is recognized as the only
water cavern in PA, and this one is supposed to be even larger.
Regards, ed
Ed,
I've found many references to an Alexanders Cave in the NSS News, a
publication from the National Speleological Society. The references start in
1986 and continue on from there. This is in Miflin County, PA so I guess it's
the right one.
Now that I found the references, what info do you want? <G>
In 1986, the Bald Eagle Grotto was formed in Williamsport, PA. "Our current
project is to work with the owners to develop better protection from vandalism
for Alexander Cave in Pennsylvania." Later in '86, a notice was published:
"Ex-Commerical Cave Reopened
Alexander Caverns, located in Mifflin
County, Pennsylvania, has been reopened to
cavers by the Bald Eagle Grotto. People
wishing to visit this cave should contact the
Grotto and not bother the ownwers. The door
is locked and the owners do not have a key.
Even after all of the vandalism that has
occurred in this cave, it still remains as one
of the most beautiful caves in Pennsylvania."
The rest of the article contains a contact that is out of date. Any help?
Rich
Doug,
I had to drag Rich kicking and screaming to the forum!! No, it's as he says. I
started searching for geology and found ya'll. Have met some real nice folks
so far!! I'll also be telling other friends about it, now that I've found it.
Shannon
Doug,
Thanks for the warm hello. I'll certainly try to contact the person you
mentioned in Australia–I've recently been reading up on Australian cave diving
and dry caving, but know nothing about the continent in geological terms. I'm
still trying to figure out the different between types of limestones here in my
own backyard!!
Are there are good basic geology books you might recommend for a neophyte like
myself? I'm a bit of a book-hound. Also, are there any magazines/publications
that might interest the newcomer? Thanks again for the hello!!
Shannon
Hi, Shannon–
My geology education, such as it is, is highly informal (much of it coming
from hanging around here), so I am not clear which books would be good starting
points. Others here may have some suggestions to kick in.
I picked up a lot from Scientific American and Earth magazines; the latter,
along with some more specialized rockhound magazines, is described briefly and
subscription info given in GEOMAG.TXT in this SCIENCE forum's library 12
(geology/earth science).
–Doug