#Chinese nation
13 messages in this thread
>>Really? Gee, been programming the Amiga for what, 8 years now and never did
notice multibyte-font handling in the OS. Guess I must have been sleeping. So
tell me, how do I mix Kanji or Hanja or Farsi for that matter into my english
douments using, say, EMACS or ED? Or Word Perfect, for that matter? Hmmm?<<
I don't think this was the content of my message but I made a cyrillic font
once and that was no problem. Except for one thing though, I wanted to have
finished before even bothering to start so it was an ugly one.
No, I didn't bother to try that in emacs nor ed but so, I didn't try it in
edlin nor edit for that matter.
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Yep – that was the germane issue to which you replied. I stated that the Amiga
wasn't appropriate for Chinese use due to font incompatibility, someone else
posted in the thread, and you told them I was wrong. I'm not. 🙂
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
>>Yep – that was the germane issue to which you replied. I stated that the
Amiga wasn't appropriate for Chinese use due to font incompatibility, someone
else posted in the thread, and you told them I was wrong. I'm not.<<
I program on the Amiga since 10 years and made one *ugly* font for it. I have
to confess humbly that I am not extremely experienced with fonts therefore: on
what do you base your statement that the Amiga is less suited for Chinese fonts
than a PC? At least in my view, there shouldn't really be *any* difference…
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Whether the Amiga is more or less suited for Chinses use is not dependant on
the question of "can you make a font?". It's the question of "How many
characters can a font contain?" that decides the issue, as well as "is the
capability generally usable in applications?"
The Amiga's operating system doesn't support fonts with more than about 256
characters. Fonts for other languages often have far more than 256 symbols;
Korean, Japanese and Chinese are good examples of very rich character sets not
suited for use in a one-byte encoding environment.
Windows (even at v 3.1, which is getting a little long in the tooth) supports –
and integrates in various applications – double-byte font encoding, resulting
in tens of thousands more characters thant the 256 available in an Amiga font
set.
Under Windows 3.1, I can, and do, use huge font sets in standard applications;
Korean and Chinese in specific. Farsi, Japanese, Cyrllic, Hebrew, Vietnamese,
and Thai font capabilities are all currently available for transparent use
within Windows applicaitons to my certain knowledge. Under AmigaDOS, I can't do
anything even remotely resembling transparent use. That simple fact is why I
stated that the Amiga isn't a reasonable candidate for a Chinese base system.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Thanks for the info.
The ugly font I made was in fact a cyrillic one. Since I use TeX, I made it to
be able to read cyrillic while using CED.
I still have some doubts though: to the best of my knowledge peecee keyboards
never had more than 256 keys so I guess it still will be not very easy to use
*all* chinese characters AND I noticed quite some problems by even using only
the wingdings font under Windows. What is there I don't know to make these
wonderful Windows possibilities happen?
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Bart,
PC keyboards, like Amiga, Mac and certainly things like the venerable c64
that's wandered in and out of this thread, are all far too limited in keycaps
to handle character sets like these.
Hangul could produce (grabbing calculator) 14*21*14=4116 distinct characters
from it's (14+21=35) basic character components, and that doesn't account for
double characters and some of the rarer character components at all. So this
problem exists everywhere – and a 4000+ key-keyboard isn't a solution, it IS a
problem! <grin> The solution is to map the keys on the keyboard to produce the
35+ components and "build" the characters on the fly. There is a standard
Hangul-component to keyboard mapping, and the software I use (on both the Amiga
and the PC) use this. The difference is that once the character is built, the
PC software can handle it, in general. The Amiga software has to be a specific
application designed to do so.
The Hanja (Korean term for Chinese characters) character set can only be
described as huge. Some character dictionaries run to 50,000 (yeah, fifty
_thousand_) characters! Can you imagine the keyboard? A more or less square
keyboard would be 224×223 keys! Egads! Well, the problem's not as bad as it
seems because most writing is done with a fraction of those 50000. But still,
you want to be able to say "peanut brittle" when you need to… 🙂 There are
multiple methods for handling this; the easiest way I've seen is one that
relies on the root _sound_ of the character in Korean. You type in the Hangul
for the syllable "Kwuhn", and the software will (if you press the appropriate
key) pop up a windows with a scrolling list of Hanja that matches that sound.
Probably straight Chinese would use a similar technique, in order to accomodate
the limitations of the keyboard which you have correctly identified as the
bottleneck in getting such a huge character set into play.
Both Korean and Japanese have written language methods that use "letter"
characters – they represent sounds as do our own familiar 26 or so letters, but
both also have the Chinese set… one cool thing here is that when you learn
the Chinese characters, you've gone a _long_ way towards being able to read
Korean, Chinese _and_ Japanese characters… though it sure isn't all the way.
Letter type writing is much easier to "fold" into a keyboard than is
character-is-a-word types of writing. But both have to be done in order to
serve in the task we've been talking about.
And then the OS, and applications running under the OS, have to recognize and
properly handle these huge character sets.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Thanks for the info. This was the kind of answer I was looking for, not just a
harsh pro or contra Amiga/PC/whatever statement. I kept your info for further
use.
>>The difference is that once the character is built, the PC software can
handle it, in general. The Amiga software has to be a specific application
designed to do so.<<
This troubles me a bit. Isn't it so this counts for every computer except
perhaps for a computer that would have a kind of super-unicode system built in
the OS and with all native software designed to use this?
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Bart,
The thing is, Windows *is* a system where all software is designed to handle
extended font sets. That's the whole point. Even the dumbest Windows
application – in fact, what may be THE dumbest Windows application, "NotePad",
handles these fonts perfectly. As does Word, the el supremeo maximum overkill
application. Quattro Pro does. Heck, everything I've tried does, and I have a
lot of software (well a fair bit, anyway).
It *should* trouble you. The Amiga doesn't do this. It's not a minor oversight,
and it's something I understand they were trying to address, but there are
irrevocable compatibility problems because the capability wasn't in there from
day one.
As Amiga users and lovers (and I'm both), we tend to fall a bit overboard on
crediting our machines with being "way ahead". I hear it all the time. In many
ways, the Amiga was ahead, no question. But in many ways, it's not and this is
continuing to change. Windows, for all it's faults, is enormously powerful and
flexible, and I am _sorry to say_ far ahead of the Amiga in most departments.
The Amiga's one real advantage is hardware based, and none of the hardware
manufacturers are sleeping, count on it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
I begin(well, not really begin) to believe that you live in a totally different
world than mine. Last year, I needed a Cyrillic font for doing Dutch-Russian
translations. The people at our IT department told me it was easy to find them.
It was so easy I designed one myself (not a very good one, I hadn't the time)
because after two months they did only come up with a very ugly font that just
seemed to be badly scanned and I am conscious of the fact this has nothing to
do with “extended'' font sets.
One anecdote, the last, I had with MS-people happened about two years ago. I
asked them to show me the multi-tasking possibilities of Windows. It turned out
that they couldn't.
>>far ahead of the Amiga in most departments<<
The day I find a computer system with the overall capabilities of an Amiga, it
doesn't even have to be better, only widely available and used I change
immediately. I know of plenty of people *telling* me I am a hard-headed fool
and that the Amiga is plain worthless. But how does it come that no one has
ever even tried to show me al those wonderful things a PC does better than an
Amiga. I use PC's all the time, I train people in how to use PC's. At my work,
I have five PC's that I can consider to be “mine''. I have one Amiga and yet I
have to turn to that Amiga all the time… I *hate* doing that bevcause I hate
always going stream upwards but at least I can get the job done that way.
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Bart-
The thing is, cyrillic only has something like 36 characters.
Mr. Zombie
Paul,
In fact it is more than that. I needed only the Russian part of it, fortunately
and I guess I needed about 32.
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
Bart,
Windows will multitask if the application is written to do so. As ours are. It
is co-operative multitasking, which – compared to the pre-emptive, as the Amiga
works – is a very poor method. I *know* it works though, because our
application (WinImages) multitasks just fine under Windows.
As far as anything I have reported to you thus far, it's 100% accurate.
Cyrillic is something I ma not particularly familar with. If it's an
alphabetical representation, then it should fit in a 256 character set and the
Amiga should have no problem with it. Same for Windows, of course. The other
character sets we've been discussing do not fit in 256 slots.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
>>Windows will multitask if the application is written to do so.<<
I know that. I even demonstrate it in my class. One of my problems with MS was
however that their Belgian people (at least the ones I met) weren't able to
show it!
>>I *know* it works though, because our application (WinImages) multitasks just
fine under Windows.<<
I *don't* doubt that.
>>If it's an alphabetical representation, then it should fit in a 256 character
set and the Amiga should have no problem with it.<<
It is, and there is no trouble using it of course.
I don't doubt your words, I am however trying to find out why no one that I
know of and is pro-pc and against the Amiga has ever shown that to me.
>>The other character sets we've been discussing do not fit in 256 slots.<<
I agree totally. I just don't see the trouble. I would just use a combination
of different fonts and achieve that on the Amiga without any real trouble.
Well, I would have the trouble of choosing the right font of course.
Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com
… On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …