CompuServe Thread

#Chinese nation

13 messages in this thread
#194719From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 26, 1995 8:12 PM
>>Really? Gee, been programming the Amiga for what, 8 years now and never did notice multibyte-font handling in the OS. Guess I must have been sleeping. So tell me, how do I mix Kanji or Hanja or Farsi for that matter into my english douments using, say, EMACS or ED? Or Word Perfect, for that matter? Hmmm?<< I don't think this was the content of my message but I made a cyrillic font once and that was no problem. Except for one thing though, I wanted to have finished before even bothering to start so it was an ugly one. No, I didn't bother to try that in emacs nor ed but so, I didn't try it in edlin nor edit for that matter. Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#194948From: Black Belt SystemsApr 27, 1995 11:29 PM
Yep – that was the germane issue to which you replied. I stated that the Amiga wasn't appropriate for Chinese use due to font incompatibility, someone else posted in the thread, and you told them I was wrong. I'm not. 🙂 –Ben …via AutoPilot
#195165From: Bart Van BockstaeleApr 29, 1995 1:36 PM
>>Yep – that was the germane issue to which you replied. I stated that the Amiga wasn't appropriate for Chinese use due to font incompatibility, someone else posted in the thread, and you told them I was wrong. I'm not.<< I program on the Amiga since 10 years and made one *ugly* font for it. I have to confess humbly that I am not extremely experienced with fonts therefore: on what do you base your statement that the Amiga is less suited for Chinese fonts than a PC? At least in my view, there shouldn't really be *any* difference… Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#195208From: Black Belt SystemsApr 29, 1995 7:30 PM
Whether the Amiga is more or less suited for Chinses use is not dependant on the question of "can you make a font?". It's the question of "How many characters can a font contain?" that decides the issue, as well as "is the capability generally usable in applications?" The Amiga's operating system doesn't support fonts with more than about 256 characters. Fonts for other languages often have far more than 256 symbols; Korean, Japanese and Chinese are good examples of very rich character sets not suited for use in a one-byte encoding environment. Windows (even at v 3.1, which is getting a little long in the tooth) supports – and integrates in various applications – double-byte font encoding, resulting in tens of thousands more characters thant the 256 available in an Amiga font set. Under Windows 3.1, I can, and do, use huge font sets in standard applications; Korean and Chinese in specific. Farsi, Japanese, Cyrllic, Hebrew, Vietnamese, and Thai font capabilities are all currently available for transparent use within Windows applicaitons to my certain knowledge. Under AmigaDOS, I can't do anything even remotely resembling transparent use. That simple fact is why I stated that the Amiga isn't a reasonable candidate for a Chinese base system. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#195423From: Bart Van BockstaeleMay 1, 1995 11:38 PM
Ben, Thanks for the info. The ugly font I made was in fact a cyrillic one. Since I use TeX, I made it to be able to read cyrillic while using CED. I still have some doubts though: to the best of my knowledge peecee keyboards never had more than 256 keys so I guess it still will be not very easy to use *all* chinese characters AND I noticed quite some problems by even using only the wingdings font under Windows. What is there I don't know to make these wonderful Windows possibilities happen? Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#195444From: Black Belt SystemsMay 2, 1995 4:01 AM
Bart, PC keyboards, like Amiga, Mac and certainly things like the venerable c64 that's wandered in and out of this thread, are all far too limited in keycaps to handle character sets like these. Hangul could produce (grabbing calculator) 14*21*14=4116 distinct characters from it's (14+21=35) basic character components, and that doesn't account for double characters and some of the rarer character components at all. So this problem exists everywhere – and a 4000+ key-keyboard isn't a solution, it IS a problem! <grin> The solution is to map the keys on the keyboard to produce the 35+ components and "build" the characters on the fly. There is a standard Hangul-component to keyboard mapping, and the software I use (on both the Amiga and the PC) use this. The difference is that once the character is built, the PC software can handle it, in general. The Amiga software has to be a specific application designed to do so. The Hanja (Korean term for Chinese characters) character set can only be described as huge. Some character dictionaries run to 50,000 (yeah, fifty _thousand_) characters! Can you imagine the keyboard? A more or less square keyboard would be 224×223 keys! Egads! Well, the problem's not as bad as it seems because most writing is done with a fraction of those 50000. But still, you want to be able to say "peanut brittle" when you need to… 🙂 There are multiple methods for handling this; the easiest way I've seen is one that relies on the root _sound_ of the character in Korean. You type in the Hangul for the syllable "Kwuhn", and the software will (if you press the appropriate key) pop up a windows with a scrolling list of Hanja that matches that sound. Probably straight Chinese would use a similar technique, in order to accomodate the limitations of the keyboard which you have correctly identified as the bottleneck in getting such a huge character set into play. Both Korean and Japanese have written language methods that use "letter" characters – they represent sounds as do our own familiar 26 or so letters, but both also have the Chinese set… one cool thing here is that when you learn the Chinese characters, you've gone a _long_ way towards being able to read Korean, Chinese _and_ Japanese characters… though it sure isn't all the way. Letter type writing is much easier to "fold" into a keyboard than is character-is-a-word types of writing. But both have to be done in order to serve in the task we've been talking about. And then the OS, and applications running under the OS, have to recognize and properly handle these huge character sets. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#195610From: Bart Van BockstaeleMay 3, 1995 5:30 PM
Ben, Thanks for the info. This was the kind of answer I was looking for, not just a harsh pro or contra Amiga/PC/whatever statement. I kept your info for further use. >>The difference is that once the character is built, the PC software can handle it, in general. The Amiga software has to be a specific application designed to do so.<< This troubles me a bit. Isn't it so this counts for every computer except perhaps for a computer that would have a kind of super-unicode system built in the OS and with all native software designed to use this? Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#195657From: Black Belt SystemsMay 4, 1995 1:31 AM
Bart, The thing is, Windows *is* a system where all software is designed to handle extended font sets. That's the whole point. Even the dumbest Windows application – in fact, what may be THE dumbest Windows application, "NotePad", handles these fonts perfectly. As does Word, the el supremeo maximum overkill application. Quattro Pro does. Heck, everything I've tried does, and I have a lot of software (well a fair bit, anyway). It *should* trouble you. The Amiga doesn't do this. It's not a minor oversight, and it's something I understand they were trying to address, but there are irrevocable compatibility problems because the capability wasn't in there from day one. As Amiga users and lovers (and I'm both), we tend to fall a bit overboard on crediting our machines with being "way ahead". I hear it all the time. In many ways, the Amiga was ahead, no question. But in many ways, it's not and this is continuing to change. Windows, for all it's faults, is enormously powerful and flexible, and I am _sorry to say_ far ahead of the Amiga in most departments. The Amiga's one real advantage is hardware based, and none of the hardware manufacturers are sleeping, count on it. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#195737From: Bart Van BockstaeleMay 4, 1995 5:55 PM
Ben, I begin(well, not really begin) to believe that you live in a totally different world than mine. Last year, I needed a Cyrillic font for doing Dutch-Russian translations. The people at our IT department told me it was easy to find them. It was so easy I designed one myself (not a very good one, I hadn't the time) because after two months they did only come up with a very ugly font that just seemed to be badly scanned and I am conscious of the fact this has nothing to do with “extended'' font sets. One anecdote, the last, I had with MS-people happened about two years ago. I asked them to show me the multi-tasking possibilities of Windows. It turned out that they couldn't. >>far ahead of the Amiga in most departments<< The day I find a computer system with the overall capabilities of an Amiga, it doesn't even have to be better, only widely available and used I change immediately. I know of plenty of people *telling* me I am a hard-headed fool and that the Amiga is plain worthless. But how does it come that no one has ever even tried to show me al those wonderful things a PC does better than an Amiga. I use PC's all the time, I train people in how to use PC's. At my work, I have five PC's that I can consider to be “mine''. I have one Amiga and yet I have to turn to that Amiga all the time… I *hate* doing that bevcause I hate always going stream upwards but at least I can get the job done that way. Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#195745From: Paul IdolMay 4, 1995 8:30 PM
Bart- The thing is, cyrillic only has something like 36 characters. Mr. Zombie
#195848From: Bart Van BockstaeleMay 5, 1995 7:18 PM
Paul, In fact it is more than that. I needed only the Russian part of it, fortunately and I guess I needed about 32. Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …
#195786From: Black Belt SystemsMay 5, 1995 8:47 AM
Bart, Windows will multitask if the application is written to do so. As ours are. It is co-operative multitasking, which – compared to the pre-emptive, as the Amiga works – is a very poor method. I *know* it works though, because our application (WinImages) multitasks just fine under Windows. As far as anything I have reported to you thus far, it's 100% accurate. Cyrillic is something I ma not particularly familar with. If it's an alphabetical representation, then it should fit in a 256 character set and the Amiga should have no problem with it. Same for Windows, of course. The other character sets we've been discussing do not fit in 256 slots. –Ben …via AutoPilot
#195849From: Bart Van BockstaeleMay 5, 1995 7:18 PM
Ben, >>Windows will multitask if the application is written to do so.<< I know that. I even demonstrate it in my class. One of my problems with MS was however that their Belgian people (at least the ones I met) weren't able to show it! >>I *know* it works though, because our application (WinImages) multitasks just fine under Windows.<< I *don't* doubt that. >>If it's an alphabetical representation, then it should fit in a 256 character set and the Amiga should have no problem with it.<< It is, and there is no trouble using it of course. I don't doubt your words, I am however trying to find out why no one that I know of and is pro-pc and against the Amiga has ever shown that to me. >>The other character sets we've been discussing do not fit in 256 slots.<< I agree totally. I just don't see the trouble. I would just use a combination of different fonts and achieve that on the Amiga without any real trouble. Well, I would have the trouble of choosing the right font of course. Bart Van Bockstaele at 100574.2352@compuserve.com … On AutoPilot and Amiga all the way from Belgium …