#PAR Crashes.
29 messages in this thread
Alan,
David is right.
I'm a Dealer for the PAR Boards and If I build a system for a client it gets a
3 1/2" Fan on the Drives and a 3" fan over the Boards of course the system has
a CPU fan and then there's the fan on the Power Supply.
If the Client is putting it in an existing unit or bought mailorder before
talking to me I insist that he put a Fan on the Hard Drives. If Not He's on
His own.
We're pushing the limits on these systems and we have to realize that if we
want trouble free operations were going to have to pay attention to things like
proper cooling.
Why do you think to big ol' mainframes had Air Conditioning? It wasn't for the
comrfort of the staff! <BG>
I have Never had a problem with a PAR Setup neither have any of my clients that
heeded these warning.
Oh' Yes….ONCE you've cooked a Hard Drive and Start to get these errors on a
regular basis…there is no way to fix it….the drive is history! You need to
purchase a new hard drive or if you can get a replacement do so and imeadiatly
put a fan on it!
Even if it's opening up the case and sticking a 6" fan on it like David has.
Hey….It works…and it keeps on working.
I prefer to put the fans in a huge tower case to keep the noise at a minimum
but what the heck……whatever works. <BG>
Murph'
James,
Having a fan blow directly on the drive is certainly a good idea but it is not
a solution to the continual PAR drive crash problem.
I know. I've had a nine-inch fan blowing directly on the drive since I started
using it and I've had continual crashes.
Alec Jason
Alec,
>> I know. I've had a nine-inch fan blowing directly on the drive since I
started using it and I've had continual crashes. <<
for me the problem is not heat of the drive, it's heat of the board set. I have
to direct the fan on the boards or I get timeout failures.
Martin,
I don't have timeout problems at all — just complete scrambles of all
animations on the hard disk.
Maybe the PAR should come in a refrigerated housing.
Thanks for your tip!
Alec Jason
>> I've had a nine-inch fan blowing directly on the drive since I started using
it and I've had continual crashes.<<
I would suspect that if you've never had it working right to begin with then
there's something wrong with the install.
Who installed this unit?
Murph'
<< Who installed the unit ? >>
You mean who pushed the boards into the socket and connected the hard disk
cable? I did.
James, this problem goes far beyond a problem with the "installation."
Thanks,
Alec Jason
Alec,
Talked to Gary at DPS on Monday. They're not sure what the problem is, but are
at least working on it. He THINKS it may be the software, something to do with
corrupted links (?). Being that it's an intermittent, seemingly random event,
though, the exact cause may be elusive….After reading all the new messages on
this thread about fans, though, I get the sense that it might be hardware
after all, or perhaps a combination of the two….
I decided to pop open the hood of my Micron speedster and find out just how
much heat was being put out by the various parts. The drive itself seems
relatively cool. The PAR BOARD on the other hand–whew! I literally cannot keep
my finger on some of the circuits they're so hot. And I've only had my machine
on for an hour! I'm installing a fan pronto and crossing my fingers…..If the
system has another schizophrenic attack I suppose I'll try to get both the
drive and board replaced and start over with some heavy AC. Until then, will
continue to watch this thread.
Am grateful to everyone for their help.
Alan
>>> James, this problem goes far beyond a problem with the "installation." <<<
No offense Alec but maybe it does.
You haven't estableshed that.
If you've had trouble from "Day One" like you've told me here maybe it is
the installation. I had a Client Swear to me he couldn't figure out why he had
this great loss of power and why his system was running so badly and seemed to
hang up constantly. He kept telling me he had "Driver Problems, Memory
Problems, Etc, Etc, Finally I had to go On-Site……He had accidently turned
the "Turbo" Switch OFF!
So should I charge him for the 45 Min on the phone then the Hour drive to and
from his place because he can't see the yellow light is off? Who Pays for this
kind of Stuff? <BG>
What I'm saying is sometimes it's Right in front of you and your trying to make
it
harder than it is:
Having said that:
I guess I'd need more details on your system but there's a lot of things that
can happen. For example what kind of hard drive are you using with the DPS
PAR?
Is it one Master Drive and No Slave drive…most installations are that way
however if you've got a slave drive you have to change the jumpers on the hard
drives to reflect that.
I've even had problems with a Pentium System that used a PCI SCSI Bus card to
control the computers hard drive but also had another seperate IDE controller
plugged in that was used exclusivly to operate the I/O ports….Guess What?
The Jumper on that card was still set up to look for an IDE Drive and for some
inexplicable reason when the PAR Software set the Dedicated Par Drive up to be
visible to the DOS Operating system all worked seemingly well until we started
getting File Allocation Table Errors on the SCSI Hard Drive the Whole system
locked up and we had to reformate the SCSI Drive after we corrected the wrong
Jumper setting on the IDE Controller used for I/O Port Function.
How New is your Computer/BIOS? What Flavor?
What Kind of Motherboard?
What Version of the Par Software are you running?
Do you have any sound cards installed? What Kind? What Address?
Are you on a Network?
If so what Kind? What's the Network Driver type and Date?
Just for fun if your using a Micorpolis Drive on the PAR On the Jumper Block
Labeled J6 Jumpers W1 and W2 need to be removed for a master only drive, this
is the Micorpolis factory default. If you have two drives this is where you
need to have W2 Only installed for the master drive and W1 only for the slave
drive.
What are your Block Limit Settings?
Did you use the Ribbon Cable that Came with the PAR on the Drive?
Are you trying to run the TBC IV Also….Remove it and just get the PAR going
First.
Are you getting any DOS ErrorLevel codes returned by PARINIT?
What happens when you run the PARTEST Program?
Does it pass all the Tests?
After the PARTEST runs all its tests try then reformating the drive using the
Format command in the PARTEST interface. How Long does it Take?
Have you Talked to the Boys at Digital?
I've only had to call them twice and both times it was when I was new to the
PAR units and my error. They were very good at not giving me a hard time
either, I got my answers quick and the solutions worked.
If you talked to Digital,
What have they Said? Done? Etc.
Is this a New Board and New Hard Drive or did you get it used from someone
"trading up". <g>
That's about as much as I can think of off the Top.
Get back to me on this will Ya' Alec! <BG>
Murph'
Ahhhh . . . James.
<< What kind of motherboard? (etc)>>
I do appreciate your interest and all the work you went through writing that
message to me but most of the questions you asked me are irrelevant to the
problem or were answered in my original message and I don't have the time to
explain each one individually.
Please note that the problem in intermittant and that it has occurred while
installed in two different computers (486 and Pentium).
But thanks again,
Alec Jason
>>Please note that the problem in intermittant and that it has occurred while
installed in two different computers (486 and Pentium).<<
You've either Fried the Hard Drive and Or the DPS Par Board.
Murph'
James-
I curious about the fans you use too. I'm just about to install a PAR card and
a Micropolis 1.6 in a tower unit Micron p-90 and I'm real interested in the
physical layout of these extra fans.
Carlton
Carlton,
Have a Micron P90 tower myself. Very curious about the fan thing, too. One tip
about the installation of the board–have fun. You're going to have to put it
in the second or third last slot (near the bottom). It's a tight squeeze. I had
to move my cards all around to make room. It is possible, though.
Alan
The Small 3" Fan was mounted on the inside front of the box facing the plug-on
boards and the 4" AC Fan was Mounted on the Back facing the front of the Tower
blowing directly on the Hard Drives with no obstructions between the fan and
the hard drives.
Murph'
James=
Aha! I knew my other life as a sculptor was going to come in handy. Just
happen to have a sheet metal shop downstairs in the "studio".
Thanks for the fan info.
Carlton
There Ya' Go! ….to lift a phrase.<BG>.
Murph'
I have a fan directly on my PAR board, my tower case open, and the damn thing
still runs hot as hell. Any leads on a micro micro air conditioner?
Alan
Alan,
If you've got a fan on the system and it's still running hot to the touch what
king of fan is it? I've always used 3" fans on the boards and a 4" fan on the
Har Drives at the same time and it's always barely warm actually almost cool to
the touch.
What's your Power Supply Rated at? Are you sure your not over taxing it. That
can cause computer components to run hot too.
BTW my 4" fan runs directly off the AC not the DC power.
Murph'
James,
I have three fans goin in my system right now. A three inch blowing on the
boards (positioned, incidentally, and fortunately, in line with the PAR), the
fan on the Pentium chip, and a four inch on the power supply. All of the chips
on the PAR are fine heat-wise except for the "DCT Processor" chip, which is
scalding. My Micropolis, after 13 hours or so of being on, is also running
pretty hot. Need to get a fan on that ASAP. BTW, the fan on the boards doesn't
seem to be all that powerful–your typical 3" DC radio shack variety. The name
of the company that makes it is called "Oriental Computer," believe it or not.
Any suggestions for hooking up a 4" 120VAC?
Power supply is fine. Tower case so there's lots of room to breathe. Not sure
why things are so hot.
Sorry so long in reply.
Alan
We had one of the Tech's do it at a Metal Shop so this isn't first hand.
They basicly just cut a 4inch hole in the back of the case finished off the
rough edges and mounted a wire mesh inside then the fan inside. Just twisted
the AC Lines together coming in from the outside ac so it's on all the time.
That was about it. Although I'd reccommend you try out the AC Fans first at
the shop before you buy to see how quite they are. This one is very quite but
still adds to the background noise. I have no idea what the brand is because
the motherboard and everything else was then put in and the box was closed up
and give to me. I'll have to take the cover off one of these days for cleaning
and I'll look then. At this time with everything we've got wired in to it plus
the fact it's on all the time, I can't really put it off line until some of
these projects get done.
I got many promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep…."Robert Frost".
Murph'
Alan,
There's more benefit to aiming a fan at the Micropolis
drive than the PAR card. The drive is the thing that
generates the most heat.
Jamie Carr
in:sync
Alec.
Are you still having crashes now ? Did anyone help you with
your PAR crashing problems ?
Maybe I can help – I've been using the PAR for a while and
I'm pretty familiar with it. Could you let me know your
system specifications (hard drive size, what software you
are using, are you running a network, smartdrv, how much
RAM have you got, what version of PAR, PARTEST,
PARDRV are you using etc)
The problems you are having point to a major system problem
and maybe I can help track it down.
Jamie Carr
in:sync
Jamie,
Kind of you to take on interest in my problem.
I'm using the Microp 2217a (1.7), version 1.5 of the software, Partest v1.12,
Pardrv 1.7. I've got 32 megs ram in each computer. I'm using Lantastic 6.0.
I'm pretty certain the problem has to do with the PAR and the drive — only.
Just performing an optimize or deleting one frame or joining can screw up the
entire drive. This problem occurs intermittantly about 20% of the time I
perform any PAR operation.
BTW, I still need to know specifically which compressor I am supposed to be
using in the Prevew Settings — the "Cinepak Codec" ?
Thanks,
Alec Jason
P.S. I think your RP would really benefit from an instructional video showing
the basic operation as well how to use the many transitions, etc. Have you
given any thoughts to that?
Alec,
Intermittent problems like the one you are describing point to a
fault of some sort in the hardware.
Have you thought about asking DPS to check the card and drive
for you ? If you could spare to have them test it for you they could
probably narrow down the problem.
Preview setting compressor – use either Microsoft Video 1 or Full
frames uncompressed (provided the preview size is not too big!)
We have started work on an instructional video and now that we've
had loads of questions about it we feel that we should be able to
put together something which helps to answer them.
Jamie Carr
in:sync
>> I know. I've had a nine-inch fan blowing directly on the drive since I
>> started using it and I've had continual crashes.
Alec, Well, like I said before I don't know why I have been so lucky. (Crossing
my fingers) But my PAR has not crashed once in the almost 5 months that I've
had it. Right now I'd be really sad if it did, as I don't have a backup. 🙁 My
very next purchase is going to be a DAT drive. Anyway, maybe you just received
a defective drive. I keep my block limit pretty low also (220). I tried using
240 per DonL but ran into some animations getting corrupted. With 220 I don't
have any problems. I feel for you though. Losing stuff sucks. Especially if it
was long render time stuff. On that note, I just found out that doing large
LenZFX Aura's on a 486/66 is not a good idea. <g> I was up to 3 hr's per frame
for a lousy glow. I sure hope an Alpha system is within my budget come fall.
So, how's business in the forensic market? See ya.
DM
David,
Yes, I guess you have been lucky — or more accurately, I've been UNlucky. I
know the PAR works for most people. And it does work for me, I just can trust
it. I started out using 230 block limit and had the most problems. I've lately
been using 240 and it doesn't seem to make a differance that I can detect.
<< How's business in the forensic market? >>
Pretty steady. My stuff is all Bullets & Bodies, but I guess we all need a
specialty, wot?
Keep in touch,
Alec Jason
> I prefer to put the fans in a huge tower case <
What fans do you recommend? How are they mounted to the frame? Just curious.
— James — Choreo Motion —
The Towers we get just as plain Boxes without any Electronics in them except
for the Power Supplies and a 3 inch fan that is mounted on this particular
tower facing the Boards…Then we go to Radio Shack and buy a 4" fan, cut out
the back of the Tower in the area that faces the hard drives from the rear of
the tower blowing towards the front.
After smoothing out our rough-cut hole we mount the 4" fan and tie it in to the
AC Power Supply line. The 4" fan is an AC Fan.
Next we install the Motherboard and rest of the electronics after making Damn
sure we don't have any of those nasty little filings from the hole we had cut
hanging around.
Actually the frame is Aluminum and we've got a freind that has a metal shop so
he cut's the fan hole over there and blows out the whole works before we get it
back. They do a pretty nice job on the cut as it's smoothed to the
touch…wouldn't want any curious folks checking out the cut and snagging a bur
now would we? <BG>
There is also a Wire Mesh with about 1/4" criss-cross wire mounted over the
opening.
That keeps out the big chunks. <BG>
The fan is the quietest we could find but it still adds to the overall machine
noise a bit.
I don't even know what brand they are, we just get em' at radio shack, plug em'
in to see how quite they are and try to find the lowest amperage rate we can
that moves the most air. Not really rocket science. <g>
Hope that helps.
Murph
Well, I have a set of tin snips, but I can't see myself going after my Micron
like a can opener! <BG> I was thinking something more like a ready-built fan
that plugs into a normal power connector. I think I've seen them in one of my
JDR catalogs. Anyway, thanks for the info!!
— James — Choreo Motion —
How bout' your standard industrial Blow Torch with a #5 tip! Hee..Hee!
That makes a nice pile of molten metal fast! <GR&D>
Seriously though you should be able to contact someone that has a connection to
a metal shop. Even a Technical College would have this. Know any Students?
Hee…Hee.. O'Boy! I'm craking myself up over that one!.. <BG>
Your are right to be concerned about haveing the cut made properly it's
generally not a do-it-yourself project unless your a metal shop. The good news
is there are a lot of metal shops around that should be happy to do this quick
job for Ya'
There's at least 7 of them in our area.
Murph'