Call for Submissions!
28 messages in this thread
Greetings,
A list of Court cases in which computer animation have been used is being
compiled for download by all forum users. If you have worked on forensic
animation projects for court room use, or if you have access to information
about such cases, please address the following list of questions and submit
your answers via e-mail to Brandon Bartlett, CIS ID: 74644,3053. The list,
once sufficient entries have been submitted, will be uploaded to one of the
AMMEDIA libraries for download and reference by everyone interested. With your
help, we will continue to compile and update the list so that we all have an
excellent reference source at our disposal on this subject. If you don't have
all the information listed, please submit whatever you have. Thank you.
1. Complete Case Title
2. State, Court and Case Number
3. Judgement, Amount (if applicable), and Date
4. Type of Case (personal injury, criminal, real estate, etc.)
5. Brief Statement of Case Facts
6. Party Offering the Animation
7. Type of Animation (simulation, illustration, tutorial, etc.)
8. Animation Admitted or Excluded? Date.
9. Who Comissioned the Animation? (attorney, expert, etc.)
10. Comissioner's Firm, Contact Name, Contact Method (phone #, e-mail, etc.)
11. Amount Invested in the Animation
12. Animation Firm, Animator's Name(s), Contact Method (phone #, e-mail,
etc.)
13. Animation Software Used (including primary 3rd party applications)
14. Brief Description of Animation, Including its Intended Purpose
Thank you for your kind assistance!
Brandon
Brandon,
I assume you're involved with forensic animation? I'd like to get my hands on
that list and maybe even talk with you about a possible article on the process
for an upcoming issue of 3D Design, a new magazine devoted to hands-on
techniques for modelers and animators. Please feel free to post me a private
message and I can give you a phone call if you'd rather I do that. Whatever the
case, I'm definitely interested in learning more.
Kelly Dove
3D Design Magazine
Hi Kelly,
>>I assume you're involved with forensic animation?
Yep, but we really specialize in architectural visualization.
>>I'd like to get my hands on that list and maybe even talk with you about a
possible article on the process for an upcoming issue of 3D Design<<
You know, about half of the responses to this call for cases have been simply
messages saying they wanted a copy of the list. If you have any ideas about
how to motivate folks to respond to the call with information, please let me
know. The list isn't growing as fast as I know it should based upon the number
of folks claiming to be forensic animators.
About the article: I am currently preparing one for the local bar association
journal, "The Alabama Lawyer", and have written a couple for "3D-Artist"
magazine. But you may want to consult the list of forensic animators, I think
its FORLST.TXT, in one of the libraries here. There are many forensic
animators more expereienced in this forum than me, and with more expertise. I
would be glad to talk to you about an article, but you may want to talk to some
of the others that have been successful in this business longer than me.
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon,
I did get a copy of the list that was posted here. As far as getting people to
respond to e-mail, I don't know the secret. Wish I did.
Best of luck.
Kelly
Brandon,
There are very few law firms that have actually gone to the expense of hiring a
competant animator & expert to produce forensic animation. Why would I or any
other sensible animator "bird-dog" them for you? Are you nuts?
RicK
Hi Rick,
>> Why would I or any other sensible animator "bird-dog" them for you?<<
Aw, come on. Do you really think that's why I'm doing this? Are you trying to
tell me that the forensic animators that frequent the forum are that insecure
about their work? Maybe we ought to replace your "sensible" with
"paranoid"<g>.
Just for the record, this list project came about because of a discussion
between myself, Rick Miller, Andrew Reese, and a few others. We thought it
would be a nice reference to have, just like the list of forensic animators
that Rick Miller put together. Wouldn't you, or your clients, like to have
such a list so you could look up similar cases and see how or why animation
helped or hindered them?
If I wanted to ferret out the competitions' clients, there are easier ways.
Personally, I am only interested in the Alabama market. I think there's going
to more than enough work to go around as animation, or computer generated
demonstrative evidence, becomes more accepted.
So, all you professional forensic animators out there, did you have the same
impression as did Rick Lapidus as to why I was compiling the list?
Best Regards,
Brandon
DesignTec
Brandon,
<So, all you professional forensic animators out there, did you have the same
impression as did Rick Lapidus as to why I was compiling the list?>
No for me on that angle. I like the list as a reference. For whatever use each
person may have. I think the market is huge (room for everyone). I think it
would even be a great idea to have everyone submit one particular sample
animation, compile a tape to show off examples as well as to educate on the
process. Give everyone credit for their submission and give info on conteacting
each company. Combine our efforts and reduce each persons investment in a great
marketing tool.
The list would also be good for advice and problem solving among fellow
animators. This is a newer field and everyones experiences can help others.
Thoughts?
Paul Kakert
Fresh Look Design
>> I think it would even be a great idea to have everyone submit one particular
sample animation, compile a tape to show off examples as well as to educate on
the process. Give everyone credit for their submission and give info on
conteacting each company. Combine our efforts and reduce each persons
investment in a great marketing tool.<<
I think that would be a great idea. Most of us, from what I have gleamed from
forum messages for the past few months, have had only a few good forensic jobs.
But if we could compile an educational demo reel as you suggest, I think it
would be mutually beneficial for all of us, and for the profession as a whole.
Just like the idea that has been knocked around here on the forum of a
professional association, with maybe even accreditation exams or something, and
definitely a code of ethics with regard to the use of animation, would go a
_very_ long way towards establishing our credibility as professionals, IMHO.
Regards,
Brandon
Brandon,
I have __NOT__ seen anything that would lead me to believe you were up to no
good.
When I get past this deadline I will send you some info. Since we last talked
another inactive case just went active with a deadline in the same week as my
other case. I sure could use Windows NT right now, it would be nice to work on
two cases at the same time.
I can't wait till the memorial day gets here, my deadlines have past and I can
take a deep breath.
Regards…………..Rick – Technical Animations
>>I can't wait till the memorial day gets here, my deadlines have past and I
can take a deep breath.<<
Well, its always good to be busy. Hang in there, and don't burn too much
'midnight oil'<g>. Leave a little work for the rest of us<bg>.
Regards
Brandon
Brandon,
I wasn't questioning your motive, just the effective result. There is no
reason to know how much is being charged for an animation. That's previledged
information.
Award is not a measure of quality. Winning is not a measure of quality.
Successfully hiding the experts mistakes is not a measure of quality.
Ddisplaying an experts testimony accurately & fairly is the goal. Everything
else is making money!
You're in the process of putting together a comparision of animation companies.
There still is no set of standards to measure performance. Just because a
company has been admitted x-number of times does not mean that he or she is
competant. Maybe unexamined or lucky. Or both.
Rick
>>I wasn't questioning your motive, just the effective result.
Oh, sorry I misunderstood.
>>There is no reason to know how much is being charged for an animation.
That's previledged information.<<
Well, the only reason I included that data field was so we _all_ could get a
clear picture, on a national scale, of how the market was shaping up. If y'all
(yeah, I'm from Alabama<g>) think that that piece of info is nobody elses's
business, then we can take that field from the list. What does everyone think?
Any comments about the rest of the list?
>>Award is not a measure of quality. Winning is not a measure of quality.
Successfully hiding the experts mistakes is not a measure of quality.<<
>>You're in the process of putting together a comparision of animation
companies.<<
I am not attempting to quantify the comparative quality of animators. This
list is meant to be a reference _for_ animators, and their respective clients.
>> There still is no set of standards to measure performance.<<
Well, who better to set up standards than us, the forensic animators
themselves? Lets put our money where our mouths are and do something to
establish standards of professionalism. Who else is going to do it for us?
Any thoughts, everyone?
Regards,
Brandon
Here's my two cents worth on the issue of including the cost of animations in
the collection Brandon is doing. (I think that was the topic)
I think it is a good idea. I think we all know what we have to make on a case.
Hours worked, materials consumed, etc…dictate that. Why do we need to know
what others are making? It's the way any business works. Check out the market.
If you belong to a group which is to benefit the association of members then
lets all get a feel for what the market will bear. Simply because someone in
Florida or California is getting 10K for a case doesn't mean I charge that for
a similar case here in the midwest. But that information can be helpful as a
marketing tool.
I'm sure there are many arguements for both publishing the prices on animations
and keeping them hidden. But hey, there are sketchy price quidelines for
broadcast work, why not forensic?
Anyone else have interest in the collaborated marketing video idea? I even
thought of putting together a quarterly newsletter for marketing. This is so
new it would be great to do some homework and put a list of cases across the
country which have used animation and make that known to your potential and
current clients. Heck, when my case got ready to go to trial the attorney had a
paralegal to that exact thing anyway. Your clients will learn to respect you
for knowing the business and being on top of things. If they decide to call
someone on the list that you put together to show successful cases, then there
probably is a lack of confidence in your ability already, something you need to
address before you start showing off other animations. Make sence?
Paul
Paul or Brandon,
OH! You feel more comfortable with your price if it is within a "fixed" range
compared to everyone else's price. Sorry, let's save that one for next week.
Before you compare price, make sure its not apple to oranges.
RIck
>>OH! You feel more comfortable with your price if it is within a "fixed"
range compared to everyone else's price.<<
Well, I can't speak for Paul, but my answer is, NO. I always feel
comfortable with the prices I give clients, or I wouldn't quote that
particular price. You are apparently still misconstrueing the
intent, which is NOT to compare my company with others, or my fees
with others, so that I can make sure I am "fitting in". If others
want to use the database we are developing for that purpose, that's
up to them. However, I don't think there will be enough info present
in any particular listing to allow folks to make an objective
comparison.
Once again:
MISSION STATEMENT:
To create a database of all relevant information available on United
States court cases in which computer generated demonstrative evidence
was presented. It is up to the user of the database to determine
what pieces of information from the list he/she thinks is relevant,
and how they will use it.
The amount of money that attorneys have been willing to shell out for
computer graphics _is_ a relevant piece of data. Just like software
companies need to do research to find out what, say the average
consumer in a certain state and socio-economic group, is willing to
pay for a particular software product. It's just good business
practice.
If you want to "keep your head in the sand" worrying about comparing
the street price of different colored fruits, go right ahead<g>. And,
if you are so "comfortable" with your pricing, your methods, and your
expertise, why do you frequent this forum, which is for the sole
purpose of everyone helping/benefitting from everyone else?
Seriously though, if the matter of price bothers you, and you want to
contribute to the list, please leave that data field blank. And please do
contribute, at your convenience!
In the thread "Garbage Forensic Anim", you said, to Alec Jason:
>> I had suggested a national organization, but most of the respondants were
merely interested in certification. Very few people are interested in a true
professional association with the obligatory standards.<<
I honestly hope you, or someone else, is able to develop that idea into a
reality. I think its something we need, as a profession, with all the ethical
codes of conduct and "obligatory standards" to go along with it. I agree that
certification shoud be a secondary concern to that of truly promoting members'
adherence to stadards of "professional" conduct and practices. If there's
anything I can do to assist, please let me know.
Best Regards,
Brandon
Brandon;
However, I don't think there will be enough info present in any particular
listing to allow folks to make an objective comparison.
>>>>>
If you're not selling televisions, why compare price? You can't make an
objective comparison between two completely different animations, even in the
same case. At least not based upon your present criteria.
Did the light bulb go on yet?
RIck
Hi Rick,
>> You can't make an objective comparison between two completely different
animations, even in the same case. At least not based upon your present
criteria.<<
Whoa. This is interesting. We seem to be agreeing, but we're still
argueing.<g> Wierd. Remember, the purpose of the list, is _not_ to make
comparisons.
>>If you're not selling televisions, why compare price?
I'm _not_ trying to compare prices, remember? I simply think that it
is a good thing to know as much as possible about how the industry is
developing, and monetary investment per case is simply another fact
that seems relevant enough to include in the database. The more we
know about every aspect of how C.G. are being in the court room, the
better advice and direction we can offer to our clients, that's the
whole purpose of the list.
If you don't want to include the dollar amount, don't. It ain't gonna' kill us
not to know.
Maybe if we argue long enough, we'll agree on every point<bg>.
Best Regards,
Brandon
<OH! You feel more comfortable with your price if it is within a "fixed" range
compared to everyone else's price. Sorry, let's save that one for next week.
Before you compare price, make sure its not apple to oranges.>
Rick,
Sounds like you think your animations are in a level of their own, maybe your
making a killing at it and are thinking you might lose business by someone
underbidding you. I don't see that in this market. If the case warrants this
type of animation and you have the respect of the attorney, they will use you
and pay your fee. If it helps them it is worth your price. I am curious – what
benefit to you see to this group. I see it as a perfect opportunity to further
the marketability of this type of animation. What you or anyone charges will
not actually affect my pricing. I base that on my time. My main use for that
information is to establish the industry accepted range to present to my
clients when and if they ask. It's all part of the education process of your
clients.
I realize you have some experience in this area that others may not have and
your animations may just be that much better. What a perfect opportunity to
help others getting started. We can all learn from what other have done
successfully. I don't want to seem to harsh here, just trying to get everyones
vantage point.
I am willing to edit the tape of samples together for the group. Let's here
some more ideas from people on that.
Paul Kakert
Paul,
NO NO NO
I don't charge enough. I should charge more. If someone comes in behind me,
under bids & kills the case more than one lost job is at stake.
A Med student goes for the best education, hoping the bucks will follow. Not
the other way around.
Rick
Hi Paul,
>>I am willing to edit the tape of samples together for the group. Let's here
some more ideas from people on that.<<
Thanks for volunteering! I would, but I don't have any editing gear, just the
one VTR. Do y'all think we ought to just cut together a bunch of samples and
leave it at that, or should we try to script something out to make an
educational tape which includes samples?
We also need to make sure the group reimburses you for any expenses you incur
to edit the tape. Should we make one master, or should we all pay to make
multiple masters, each individual keeping the second generation master so they
can arrange for their own duplicating? Should we update the tape periodically,
and send it out with a newsletter like you were talking about earlier?
I think this has the potential for helping us all help our clients better. I
look forward to working with you on this!
Best Regards,
Brandon
First off in regards to a marketing tape or newsletter….how is the collection
of data on your end going. How many people have shown interest. I think we
first establish this group, association, whatever and go from there.
I suggest I make the master on BetaCam SP and ship it to a good dup house to
hold for us. Whenever anyone wants some they simply call and order from them.
Sound good?
I say just submit one of each persons best work. It would be nice to get a
variety of situations. I have just done auto accidents. (Starting my second
case shortly). Even if we have multiple animations on the same situation that
is OK. Everyone gets a credit for their work on the tape and each person would
then personalize their own mailings with their information.
The newsletter could simply be a compiled list of cases using animation, also
include any new technology which lends itself to the field. Any more ideas?
I also wonder if anyone else is offering a wider range of services to attorneys
such as photo enlargement and detailing, video taping depositions, etc…
Let me know what you think?
Paul
>>how is the collection of data on your end going. How many people have shown
interest.<<
Not too good. So far, I have only gotten a couple submissions for the list. I
know everybody's busy, and I'm hoping that's the problem, and that doesn't
bother me in the least. But somebody please tell me if that's not the case.
If there's anything I can do to make submitting a case for the list easier,
please let me know. Also, does anyone else have a problem with the list like
Rick Lapidus? And if so, what? Is there anything we need to add/delete to
make it workable for everyone?
About the Demo Tape: I like all your last ideas. Maybe we should start a
seperate thread about the demo tape and let this one center on the list? What
do you think?
Best Regards,
Brandon
Hi Paul,
Thanks for backing up my thinking on the "whether to include fees in the
forensic animation list" issue. In reality, its up to the individual
submitting the info for the list, because he/she can simply leave that field
blank if they want to. Maybe I had better make it clearer that one need not
include every piece of info asked for to submit a case for the list.
>>Anyone else have interest in the collaborated marketing video idea?
Sure, you want to make the video while I'm making the list. You had the idea,
so you get to volunteer, that's how I got stuck doing the list<bg>.
>> If they decide to call someone on the list that you put together to show
successful cases, then there probably is a lack of confidence in your ability
already, something you need to address before you start showing off other
animations. Make sence?<<
Makes cents to me.
Regards,
Brandon
Brandon / All Forensic Animators,
I'm for including a total cost for the animations. Unless you are intimately
with the animation, you could not tell how many hours went into doing it, but a
general idea of what attorneys are spending would be helpfull.
I'm in favor of an association and all the related ideas, but with my deadline
coming up don't feel I have time to fully comment right now.
Regards…………….Rick – Technical Animations
Rick– Maybe the solution is to include prices in ranges, like $5,000-$10,000,
$10,001-20,000, etc. At least it would give animators some idea what the rough
market is.
Pricing animations up front is one of the most difficult tasks an animator
faces, especially when s/he is negoatiating with a lawyer and the cost wil
ultimately depend in part on what a third person (the expert witness) does.
Including the price would also allow lawyers to have some basis of comparison.
andy
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for jumping into the fray!<g>
>>Maybe the solution is to include prices in ranges, like $5,000-$10,000,
$10,001-20,000, etc.<<
I think that is an excellent idea. It would still give us the general data we
were looking for plus it might mitigate some of the concerns such as those
voiced by Mr. Lapidus.
How's the collection of list data coming on your end? And what do you think
about providing the list info, and other pertinent stuff, in the form of a
newsletter?
How's your book coming? Let us know when it goes to print, because I would
love to get a copy!
Thanks for your help on all this!
Best Regards,
Brandon
Andrew,
>>Maybe the solution is to include prices in ranges, like $5,000-$10,000,
$10,001-20,000, etc.<<
That would work great for me. I would make the divsion smaller, at least in my
cases almost all would fit into the $5k – $10K range. For what I have seen the
ranges would need to be every $2k.
>>Pricing animations up front is one of the most difficult tasks an animator
faces,<<
I get the feeling that maybe I'm the only one charging by the hour, therefore I
don't have the problem you mentioned. If its my first case with a client I will
quite often get a request for what I think it will cost. I don't mind giving an
estimate, but I try to make sure its clear that its still by the hour. I do
make every effort to stay close to my estimate on the first case, its a new
experience for both of us until we learn what the other person is like. I sure
don't want to leave a bad taste in the attorney's mouth, s/he sure won't come
back the second and third time, that would easily cost me more than if I had
kept the price close to what s/he was expecting.
>>Including the price would also allow lawyers to have some basis of
comparison.<<
That maybe what keeps some away from trying computer animation is the unknown
costs.
Regards……………Rick – Technical Animations
rick–
As a long-time trial lawyer and one fairly knowledgable about forensic
animation, I have to disagree with a number of your comments:
<<There is no reason to know how much is being charged for an animation.
That's previledged information. >>
Technically, it's not priveleged. It may be private, but its disclosure can
certainly be compelled in court.
<<Award is not a measure of quality. Winning is not a measure of quality. >>
Lots of lawyers take cases that may be losers just to pay the light bill. And
experts aren't supposed to care about the outcome. The ultimate award in a case
is dependent upon many things, including attorney and witness competence, the
applicable law, the quality of the available evidence, and the effectiveness of
the fact-finder. However, having said that, it's also true that a powerful
animation that sways a jury or causes capitulation in settlement is a more
effective indicator of quality than one that persuades no one.
<<Displaying an experts testimony accurately & fairly is the goal. Everything
else is making money!>>
True. But so what???
<<There still is no set of standards to measure performance. Just because a
company has been admitted x-number of times does not mean that he or she is
competant. Maybe unexamined or lucky. Or both.>>
The number of times that an expert has qualified as such is one reasonable
measure of the expert's competence. And since there must be a preliminary
finding by the judge that an exhibit reasonably fits the evidence, the number
of times a firm's animations are admitted is one reasonable measure of its
quality and accuracy.
As to standards, I've gone back and forth in my mind over whether standards
could be effectively drafted and enforced. I think that if somone can create
"bitterness units" so that Keystone can advertise beer, than certainly it must
be possible to define the quality of an animation firm. The Martindale-Hubbell
lawyer ratings, while exceptionally broad, are a reasonable model to start
with, I think.
andy