#No more A2000s?
61 messages in this thread
I've heard that CBM's blown out its stock of A2000s and A3000s to
distributors, and there's nothing left in their warehouse except new
machines…
Any speculation as to what this will mean to the Amiga market?
John,
I think it's fairly obvious — CBM's getting rid of all non-AGA machines.
Now, if they'd just dump the A500 and A600 too and release 3.0 for
everyone developers can become less schizo and develop for a unified OS
platform.
-sja
Just remember – they still sell the c64 because it sells, and for no other
reason. CBM execs have stated quite clearly that for production to
continue, sales are the only measuring stick. If the 500 and 600 still
sell, (which I think the 600 will, and the 500 is a dead duck), CBm'll
keep making em.
The 2000 – do you think they could sell a 2000 to anyone but the most
ignorant at this point? 3000's might be a bit easier, but not really, with
the 4000 just sitting there with and making the 3000 look like it uses
crayons for graphics… the 3000's SCSI is the only thing in the world it
has over the 4000, and I bet that situation obtains for not very much
longer at all. :^)
I don't think anyone will be schizo about this; game developers will do
non-aga basically forever, likewise professional apps will support both
chipsets forever, even if ALL the older chipset machines are terminated. I
don't expect more than about 1-2% of exceptions – commercial software
written only for std chips, or games written only for AGA chips.
The imperatives are too strong in both cases. Games that don't work on std
chips will be abandoning literally millions of potential sales in a 3-4
million machine market; Commercial aps that don't support AGA won't be
considered professional – or to put it another way, they'll be considered
outdated.
Of course, all of this applies only to applications that do things that
make a difference. Some apps may not be gfx sensitive at all (accounting
packages, for instance) and they don't come into this one way or another.
Just my 2 cents.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
I believe the problem is more than support or non-support of AGA.
The problem, as I see it, is that 3.0 is not available to everyone.
Anything before 2.04 is now dead — and good riddance. However, we now
have 3 versions of the OS that developers have to support — 2.04/2.05,
2.1, and 3.0. From a programmer's point of view, 2.1 has features that
2.04/05 doesn't and 3.0 has features that 2.1 doesn't. In one case that I
can think of right off the top of my head, a particular system routine
works differently in 2.1 than in 3.0.
The problem is, 2.04/05 is the lowest common denominator. I believe that
publishers are not going to be willing (time and expense-wise) to support 3
separate versions of their programs. Therefore, any advantage that 2.1 or
3.0 may have — to the programmer, and therefore, in the end, to the user
-is worthless. Unless and until 3.0 is available to everyone, all costs in
its development (other than direct AGA support) has been wasted. No
publisher, unless he's in a tight vertical market, is going to support an
OS that a comparatively few number of people are running.
This is basically the same argument that you proposed about using 2.0 only
features — you wouldn't until 2.0 was available to everyone.
OS-wise, I agree completely.
AGA is the only issue I was addressing; I've already told the folks at CBM
that we wouldn't be supporting any of the 3.0 OS features until 3.0 was
generally released, and I made just those arguments to them.
You had said that the 600 and 500 needed to go, or at least implied that;
I say they just need 3.0 on them. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
I agree with your feelings on this. You will be interested to know that
Commodore sent a list of software that shortly will be available for the
AGA systems. One of them was Wing Commander II and the second was Flight
Simulator!
-mark=
Flight simulator? Egads – a program that wasn't fast enough as it was. Oh
well, guess they had nothing better to do.
One thing about it, it's nice to know it'll work on my 4000 – I do like
flight sims.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Mark,
Was that Sublogic's Flight Simulator? I wonder if it's up to the PC
standard now? Wouldn't that be exciting!
-Sean
Sean,
I don't know–in fact the only place I saw the message was from a letter
Commodore sent their dealers about the PowerUp program.
Lets hope it is an updated version of Flight Simulator!
-mark=
Fingers crossed!
Steve,
-> Now, if they'd just dump the A500 and A600 too and release 3.0 for
-> everyone developers can become less schizo and develop for a unified ->
OS platform.
Very good point!
Unification of the system/OS is the best market weapon against the PC and
even Mac chaos!
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
Steve,
I think C= has dumped the A600–Tennex has them at $299. 🙁
We like those machines since they allow those with little coins (c64
users) an opportunity to become part of the Amiga community.
-mark=
Mark,
What is "Tennex"?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Tennex is a mail order company.
Steve
Interesting. Never heard of em (and I thought all the major mail junkies
had my personal mailing address!).
If it really does mean that the 600 has been, uh, "terminated", then that
has to make it one of the computers with the shortest life span, ever.
Which in turn would really hurt anyone who bought it. I wonder…
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Tennex is a mail order company. 🙁
-mark=
Mark,
It could also just be that they wanted to dump inventory before the end of
the quarter… The A600 is selling quite well in Europe, so I really can't
see them dumping it yet.
As for the 3000, the 4000 replaces it neatly, and is a better machine,
IMHO. The 2000 was obsoleted by the 3000t, which in turn (I hope) will be
obsoleted by a "4000t"-class machine; lots-o-slots,040,AGA. The only
remaining use for the 2000 was as a Toaster bay, and it doesn't look like
CBM is concerned about that.
Part of what it means is, the Amiga platform, the hardware, is coming up
in the world a great deal. The OS is still WAY behind, without a form of
RTG in place, and that's the killer – has been for quite some time.
The presence of the 600-class machines means we have a current scenario of
low-color development that will continue for the lowest-common denominator
chipsets indefinitely, and that will (probably) ensure that CBM continues
to survive. AGA-supporting applications are already beginning to show up,
and I don't think (unlike Steve) that the smaller, graphically weaker
machines will impact significant third-party AGA development support
significantly. Of course, this is from the perspective of someone who
doesn't care if they *ever* see an AGA game. :^)
I think that if we get RTG in place, from CBM, the AGA machines have a
chance to remain in at least as good a position as the Amiga has been in
all along. If they don't get RTG out the door shortly, I think the Amiga
will soon be eclipsed by other platforms and operating systems to the
point where it will no longer be viable. VM is also important, perhaps
almost as critical; and that again should come from CBM, not a third
party, although I certainly applaud the third parties for rubbing CBM's
nose in the fact that it can be done, easily, until CBM's nose is red and
raw with embarrassment. :^)
The 2000's and 3000's being here, or not, won't affect anyone but NewTek
(and potential NT customers) one way or another.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
According to C=, RTG is on its way (AmigaOS 4.0). Maybe if we all yell,
they'll do it a little faster!
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
Well, when CBM introduces RTG, we'll all be better off. I'm sure we agree
on that, anyway.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
The guys at Commodore are working as hard as they can, and I doubt they
could do anything faster.
It would be nice if TPTB would spend a few more $$$ and give them some
more manpower.
But that wouldn't be Commodore. We're just amazingly lucky that the
engineering department is full of some of the most talented people in the
computer industry, and that they're die-hard Amiga fans. If Commodore's
development department turned out the same amount of code-per-person as
Microsofts, and with the current number of people doing software and
hardware design, we'd probably still be waiting on the A3000 and 2.04.
Denny,
Yes, I love them, too ;^)
I'm not criticizing what the Amiga tech people for what they have
accomplished in the past year or two. In fact, I think it's fantastic!
It's just that once you pick up speed you keep yelling for more ;^)
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
I'm hoping the A2000 motherboard replacement comes along.
That would certainly be nice. Think they'll make it work with a Toaster?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
You mean to say that you don't want to see 256 color Lemmings? Or even
256,000 color? <G>
…Steve
On AutoPilot! (at last)
Nope – not even the least little bit. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I've been kinda wondering about this myself John, not so much as the
future of the 2000 or 3000, but of the future of CBM supporting NewTek and
the Video Toaster. Is CBM still supplying NewTek with "Toaster
Workstations"? What about the dealers who have been building up Toaster
systems for their customers using 2000's, are they left out in the cold?
John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
I have financial interests in the Toaster, too, as much as any dealer.
It's so stupid, the animosity between CBM, the computer company upon which
NewTek's products depend, and NewTek, who makes one of the most popular and
visible products in the Amiga market. This month, Computer Graphics World
has a big article on Babylon V, Seaquest, etc. – although it takes them a
few paragraphs to get to it, they do mention that all these spectacular
graphics are made on the Amiga. This is CGW, the magazine that usually has
$20,000 graphics workstations on the cover, hyping the Toaster.
And at the annual NewTek holiday party in December, I saw only two
representatives from Commodore. It turns out they were there on their own
dime, on their own interest… both had explicit warnings from their
superiors not to attend the party, although they were invited. There is no
love between these companies.
What does it mean to Toaster dealers? I think, if they're worried about
A2000 supplies, to offer their own "trade-up" program – buy your own
reserves of used A2000s when some customers pick up A4000s, or whatever
comes out next.
John,
One of my major distributors who has been in business for a long time
claims "they" have bought the remaining inventory from NewTek of the
current toaster.
Rumors are flying all about that a '2 board' toaster for the A4000 is
close.
In talking to our Commodore rep it seems that NewTek and Commodore are on
better terms these days.
I think the disagreement between these two companies is silly. We all
suffer the consequences. I will point out that from what I hear the fault
lies on both sides, not just Commodore.
-mark=
I wonder if there will be an up-grade from the current toaster.
If there were a 'Toaster II' board I imagine it would be for
another platform unless the Toaster IS permanently tied to AMIGA :^)
I want AGA Bad but I want my Toaster too. (no pun intended)…..
Mark,
I'd just like to point out that NewTek's newest ad in AmigaWorld no longer
mentions Toaster 2.0, but just the Video Toaster. It makes me think that
they were unsure whether or not an upgrade would be out before the ad so
they changed it not to look stupid.
I've also heard rumors of two versions of Lightwave (including a
stand-alone version) so to be out. And of course the old rumors of a
Toaster with a movable BNC so that it'll fit in an A3000; a Toaster with D2
output; etc.
-Chas
Charles,
In the Jan '93 issue of Computer Graphics World there's some info on a new
version of Lightwave. They had an article featuring Babylon 5 and other
animation projects on the small screen… The features were apparently
inspired by the heavy hitters using the Toaster.
* Better antialiasing to reduce flicker.
* Motion Blur
* depth of field
* lens flare
* faster rendering time (claimed 5 times faster)
* splines
* Booleans (in the modeler)
* "Bones", a new feature that sounds like the similar feature of Animation
Journeyman. It's for character animation. There's no mention of
availability or price, other than "spring"
Jim
I think the LW upgrade is mainly an '040 version with bug fixes and some
frequently requested enhancments and planned enhancements that didn't make
it into 2.0.
wmc – via Autopilot!
A 4000 class machine based Toaster makes a great deal of sense. They can
use the CPU power, and the extra chip bandwidth should give them leeway to
provide a wider variety of wipes and fades. They might even be able to use
the higher resolution of the 4000's chip set to do 1280 pixel resolved
motions – now THAT would set some of the commercial gear back a bit. :^)
The main drawback to the toaster is that it really is a bit lowres
compared to the commercial gear.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
A new toaster will be most welcome. Indeed, it *has* to happen if NewTek
wants to remain a viable competitor in the video business.
A product that I am watching with a lot of interest is DMI's Editmaster.
This is a completely digital based video editing system. It seems very
close to release.
-mark=
Add a Vivid24 with some as yet undeveloped software to the editmaster and
you have a VERY capable system.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Has to happen if they are going to continue to compete with the rest of
the world such as the "Toaster Killer" thing that Brown-Waugh was pushing
at COMDEX.
{@_@}
Joanne,
Tell me more about the Toaster killer from Brown-Waugh. I was at Comdex,
but saw no such beast (of course, it is easy to miss things at Comdex…:)
Jonathan
It would be nice even if there were NO new transitions, just lower
pixelization on the digital animated transitions. More importantly, a
much cleaner CG ouput with selectable colors on dropshadows and outlines
on all types of pages. Cleaner keying of titles when used in conjunction
with the wipes would also be nice. And lastly, faster LW rendering and
even perhaps an AGA preview version capability. (Guess you an tell I'm not
a real "wipe" fan. Fade and cut cover about 98% of the wipes one needs in
quality video. The others are nice to thrill freinds and to be campy or
when you are going for comic effect – something most of us don't get paid
for…:^}
However, I think we're both dreaming. After all, from a business
perspective it might make more sense to develope their own display
technology then move to machines that better support RTG. The hardware
would be more expensive, but still enough less than current "dedicated
studio hardware" to sell well. The only way it would be most cost
effective to re-engineer to AGA is if the cooperation factor between CBM
and NewTek were MUCH better than it appears to be.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Mark,
Just to add to your rumor collection: A friend of mine claims that the
following *RUMOR* comes straight from a NewTek employee…
* The latest iteration of the Toaster software is coming; it will not
include the rumored Lightwave Pro 3.0, which will cost about $1000
unbundled.
* The Toaster II is due in *NOVEMBER*, 1993. Seems to be a bit long in
the making…
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Only Amiga makes
\\// it possible…
Unbundled LightWave? Cool!
Denny,
The rumor mentioned that the new version still needs the Toaster
dongle…it just comes ala carte for those that really want it.
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Only Amiga makes
\\// it possible…
Any Y/C specifications??
None that I heard of…
Jonathan
LW will probably be un-bundled from the switcher only, you'll
still need the toaster dongle. But that would still be cool :^)
Later
Mark,
Just exploring here…
AGA is CBM proprietary, I believe. To be "tightly coupled" as I
unsderstand the Toaster was with the original chipset would mean that CBM
would probably have had to part with proprietary info to NewTek. I say
that because I believe that AGA is probably different enough from ECS and
before to require both hardware and software changes to be compatible at
the level the Toaster is rumored to be coupled to the Amiga.
Now, if a Toaster II board would be a major rework based on CBM
proprietaty technology, and given the animosity between them (even if it
is "unnoficial" – i.e. personal and between individuals in both companies)
the exchange of that information is not likely to happen. NewTek would
probably determine it was more cost effective to make a board with an
on-board graphics processor of its own that would go into an existing
platform (e.g. a PC a la Targa, or a Mac) with a larger market using
devices with publicly available technological info (like the popular TI
graphics processors) than to try to reverse engineer AGA.
So, if I were a betting man, I would bet that we won't see any AGA
Toasters for at least 18-24 months if ever, then only if it turns out to
be a PAL change to the existing board.
Having felt the NewTek/CBM chill, I'd say some prominent people in both
companies would have to go before the relations warmed enough to make a
new Toaster based on AGA a near term reality.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
There is only one major part in your equation that is missing. I suspect
the "easy part" was the hardware. The hard part of the whole Toaster
system is the software. Consdering that most of all the Toaster software
is written in assembly rewriting it for a stupid OS like MS/DOS would be
very expensive, if do-able at all.
I think there will be a new Toaster and I heard a date of October today.
🙂
Hey, they are rumors, make up some of your own! 🙂
-mark=
Well, let's see…. we cuold start the one about the new Toaster that
incldudes a companion audio swithcher with effects on the same board :^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
One would think that with the Amiga 3000 having been out for about three
years now and Commodore's statements about video slot form factors since
that point, NewTek would have spent the time to redesign the board's form
factor.
If they get bitten at this point by the lack of availability of A2000s,
it's their own fault for shortsightedness or stubborness at this point.
I agree, it's ludicrous for two companies that owe each other so much to
have animosity. And it's horribly counterproductive in a market like the
Amiga's.
Well it really is too bad that CBM and NewTek can't get along, especially
considering how much current and future financial support that NewTek
provides to the Amiga market. A lot of Amiga developer's are finding a
market in DTV with the Toaster being the catalyst. The most unfortunate
thought about this is that eventually NewTek will get fed up with CBM's
attitude and find some other platform to develop for. And yes, some of you
might try to tell me that it won't happen because the Toaster is too
dependent on the Amiga's custom chipset, to which I answer "BULL". It
wouldn't take too much for Apple, IBM, or some other company to sink a few
million into NewTek so they could design their own custom blitters, etc.
And if CBM and NewTek can't make up, I think it's only a matter of time
before it will happen. Don't get me wrong, NewTek has been no "Angel" with
their dealings with CBM and the Amiga either. Their refusal to acknowledge
that the Amiga even exists has been a sore point with every Amiga owner.
But what is needed is for one or the other to step forward, make up for
the past, and get on with the future. Either that, or the Amiga's DTV
market is in serious trouble.
John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
How much do you figure CBM has spent over the years developing and
up-gradeing THIER custom graphics chipset, since 'Lorraine' ?
Still think they should put an Amiga on a board and offer it to
PC'ers as a M/M grapics animation engine.
A lot of Amiga developers are also making products for the IBM market, and
one of the primary reasons for us has been the lack of support anywhere at
CBM except the technical people, who (as I've said many times) are pretty
wonderful. CBM has made it clear to us, at least, that they don't give a
rats hindquarters for anyone but themselves.
Now, I'm at haste here to point out that my opinion of NewTek is pretty
low as far as corporate attitude – only one company still existing in the
Amiga market ranks lower than NewTek in that way – but it is clear to us
that CBM has almost EVERYTHING to learn when it comes to supporting
developers; we have no confidence that they will do so.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Toaster is important to the Amiga market. But I doubt it accounts for even
10% of Commodore's Amiga sales. (I'd believe 1% at most.) Somehow the
thought of NewTek trying to push Commodore around gives me giggles. All it
would do is prompt C= to "pointedly ignore them." Yet this is an
impression I get if not from the NewTek folks then from folks like you who
are so convinced the Toaster is critical to the success of the Amiga. It
may be important for the success of high end Amigas. But it ain't critical
to the generalized Amiga lifeforms like the A500, A600, and A1200 which
VASTLY outnumber the A3000(T) and A4000 species of machines.
{O.O}
Joanne,
I disagree.
Why? Because of the current dealer situation in the United States. Most
of our professional sales are based around products that solve unique
problems for the customer. This is true for most Amiga dealers. Right
now we have two major solution packages that have no "PC" competition.
One of them is the Toaster and the second is InfoChannel/SCALA Multimedia.
While I do not like the thought of NewTek bullying Commodore around, I
like even less Commodore deciding to ignore them. I think both of them
need to take a 'dose of reality' pill. Newtek needs Commodore and
Commodore needs Newtek.
The percentages of machines sold mean nothing, but I dare say that your
figure of 1% does not reflect the US situation at all. Perhaps
world-wide, but not here.
Give me a product that allows me to compete with the PC for the business
market, at a price that is affordable. I don't think you can find me one.
In order to sell to business in the US, we MUST be able to do either
deliver a solution that is far less expensive than any other or we must
have an innovative product that doesn't exist on the competition's
hardware. We both know that out of the barrel Amigas can not compete for
the Word Processing, Database or Spreadhseet markets. Price of the Amiga
systems alone would stop most. The inavailability of the packages that
compare with the winners in the PC market would make this effort a joke.
That is why Amiga dealerships have turned too the professional market to
stay alive. It is called "solution" selling. The Toaster and
InfoChannel/SCALA offer a product that has no competition in the business
community. Ergo, we can now get into businesses where we could never have
dared to venture before.
Do you expect dealerships to live on the crumbs the mail order crowd
leaves? Tell me, just how can I sell an Amiga 600 at $399 against a $299
machine? Hell, I can just barely buy the A600 from Commodore at $299.
The A1200? It will suffer the same plight. Mail order will rule except
<continued>
in the cases where a dealership can prove that the higher price will
actually provide higher service to the customer. Most dealers, including
ourselves are hoping that the money will be made on peripherals and
software sales.
So before you go discounting those who say the toaster is critical to the
Amiga market, realize that there is truth to the statement. The Toaster
is critical to the Amiga market, regardless of percentages.
-mark=
Joanne, I don't think I said that the Toaster was critical to the success
of the Amiga itself, but to the success of the Amiga's DTV market. I'm
sure that if NewTek jumped ship, CBM and the Amiga would still survive.
But I'm sure if that happened a lot of people using the Amiga for DTV
would switch to whatever platform NewTek decided to develop for. A lot of
Amiga developer's would get hurt in the process.
. //
. \X/ John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
Joanne,
The Toaster is _vital_ to the Amiga dealer network, though. The vast
majority of Amiga dealers I've talked to in the states say that the
Toaster and related video sales are the tools that allow them to stay open
at all. I know two dealers that flat out couldn't survive without their
Toaster sales in this area. (When I say area I mean NC/SC… There are no
Amiga dealers within 100 miles of Greensboro.)
Denny…
That 'if it weren't for the toaster' deal really doesn't stand up.
Dealers who sell toasters and claim that without it, they would go under,
are forgetting that if the toaster wasn't around, there would likely be a
host of solutions to replace it.
Sure, these other solutions might not be as powerful as the toaster, but
if the toaster didn't exist, we wouldn't really have a toaster to compare
these other solutions with. Before the toaster, a high end genlock and good
titling software was doing well for a lot of dealers.
Jim
Also – NewTek has stopped selling "workstations", they only sell cards now.
I think happened several months ago… As far as I can tell, this had no
effect on sales, I think most dealers were crafting their own systems.
After all, I think most of the Toasters sold are part of a package, and
dealers could always make a better bundle composed of third-party hardware.
John,
More 2000s are coming, as I hear it.