#CDTV Wows CES!
19 messages in this thread
I actually would give Commodore better chances against those companies than
you appear to. One thing which is very obvious to me is that CD-I, while
the hardware is not bad at all, is still *desperately* in need of software
support. Which, frankly, NONE of those companies has any real background
in. OS/9 as a base isn't going to be particularly attracting to third
party developers: while it's nicer than MS DOS, it has other limitations,
and suffers from it's association with the Tandy Color Computer, which is
still it's biggest installed base.
Whereas Commodore *already* has a fairly large group of third party
software people already producing apps on the Amiga. It should be a tiny
step for them to come out with some smashing CDTV apps. I think it will be
the software which really drives machine sales of this type of consumer
machine, not the hardware or manufacturer. The only other strong factor I
see is Price, and that still remains to be seen.
–>Steve Bennett
Steve,
Again, which OS a player runs makes little difference. This isn't exactly
the OS-9 vs AmigaOS situation you make it out to be. More like AmigaOS vs
a-whole-lot-of-things. You're confusing the player OS with the tools used
to create discs. I do not use my home videocam to produce a Hollywood
movie. I suspect that Lucasfilm won't be using Amigas for most of their
CDTV work either.
Ever been to a place where CD-I titles are authored? They use PC's for
image grabbing, Macs for storyboarding and drawing, Suns for overall
control… whatever works best… all networked together and able to access
several realtime CDROM/CD-I emulation machines to check quality and flow.
Perhaps a dozen artists are working at one time beside a few programmers.
The point is, this is professional stuff using the best tools available.
Much of the time, OS-9 doesn't come into play at all. It'll probably be a
coupla years before OS-9 itself is used for authoring.
So I think you're way off. Time-Life Books, Groliers, the Smithsonian,
Sesame Street Productions, the US Army… they've been working on CD-I
titles all these years. The CD-I community had created its own tools akin
to AmigaVision, as time went by. There's even a forum (I don't have access)
on CIS which is the base of worldwide development.
Okay, now what you're saying is that the large group of Amiga 3td party
developers out there can produce CDTV apps on their Amigas. I agree that
they have the tools they need, for the most part. I also agree that QUALITY
_applications_ will be most important. My main thought is this: the number
of Amiga developers with the artist/programmer resources to actually
produce quality CDTV apps will be countable on your hands, because the
target market is a bit different than what they're used to. I'm open to
arguments on this.
Has there been any discussion of CDTV in that forum? And what's its name?
Maybe we should colelctively visit there, as the Amiga Forum-ites did with
the Dr Dobbs Forum. 🙂
Nah, it's mostly users (cdrom forum). That is, there are developers there
also, but I'm sure they're quite busy. Mostly pc/mac stuff. Once in a great
while a coupla DVI developers pop up.
I did leave the announcement of CDTV there, hoping to get some response
from developers passing thru… so far, only one person has asked anything
about the basic platform. And Larry and I answered him.
Too bad CBM didn't announce CDTV in time for that Computer Shopper
multimedia special last month… that's what they could use: more publicity
especially where a potential developer from another computer world might
see it.
Actually, we're probably both way off. As of right now, there just plain
is NO basis for figuring out what kind of market any interactive video/
information medium will be. Because there isn't anything like it actually
in the market yet. My personal feeling is that the actual software will
play a very strong role in the market as compared with the recorded data.
Games, in particular, will be a big force in the market, and very little of
that is recording of data and presenting it, it's more creating of the data
in the first place.
Also, you have to think in quantity as well as quality. As far as that
goes, having the Amiga as a total development environment ensures that
quantity wise there will be a LOT more stuff for CDTV produced over roughly
the same period of time. (Lets be serious now… How many small companies
can afford the kind of hardware you mentioned to make CD-I apps? There's a
big startup cost, and the bloody thing isn't even out yet…)
I think the main problem is that you're thinking of it as mainly a thing
like a VCR or Laser Disk player or CD player, market wise. And it simply
isn't. It's more computer than player, no matter how Sony or Phillips
thinks they're going to market it. It's the computer side which will
determine how it is used, in the long run, and thus what section of the
market it grabs. (Who knows, both ideas could, and quite likely might,
fall flat on their faces. Most likely, it will form a computer industry
niche, at the very least.)
–>Steve Bennett
I agree, we're probably both way off. All predictions beforehand are just
what they are: guesses. But it's fun to guess ;-).
"I think the main problem is that you're thinking of it as mainly a thing
like a VCR or LaserDisk player or CD player, market wise. And it simply
isn't."
That's where I gotta disagree. It's the whole point of such a unit. Check
the CBM announcements: they're trying to put CDTV across as a home
entertainment and education gizmo which you keep in your living room. It's
the whole point of selling a player. Expanding it with keyboard and drives
is secondary, at best… similar to expanding a game machine (which few
people historically have).
If it _were_ just a computer thingie, then it makes a heck of a lot more
sense to start out with CDROM drives and tools for the A500/2000/3000
first, doesn't it? That's the way it seems to me, anyway.
Help me up on the "quantity" thing, if you will… got any application
ideas which come to mind? (everyone else, feel free to jump in with ideas!)
Thanks (very interesting, this!) – kev
The four main application areas which come to mind are Reference utilities,
(dictionaries, thesauruses, etc.), Illustrated books/storys (illustrations
could be animated and contain sound), Tutorials and teaching programs, and
games. I think there will be a bunch of the first type almost immediately,
but their audience is REALLY limited, as you can only read these references
(or view whatever visual/sound stuff was added) but can't actually use the
information directly as you might in a CD ROM environment. The Tutorials
will eventually be a very important part, but they'll be slow in coming.
I expect a glut of games, ranging from awful to absolutely stunning.
As for the illustrated stories and books, I think this is the *real*
place that a consumer oriented machine *should* be aiming at. But I think
they'll be a long time in coming, as they require a huge amount of work.
There will probably be a middle ground with interactive stories/games
(like, for example, the Sierra Online games, only with much more depth due
to the relatively huge dataspace), and this could also be a driving force
in the long run.
Have you noticed, though, that ALL of these things except the
illustrated storys are just typical computer programs with a lot more data
than usual? It's why I classify these things as computer area units, no
matter HOW they're marketed. It still has to be programmed by someone.
That in itself is gonna influence the applications.
As a final note: CDTV ain't out yet. Who says Commodore *won't* have
CDROM drives and tools for the A500/A2000/A3000 first? More likely CDTV
units will be hookable to your average Amiga, and cover both ends. We'll
see.
–>Steve Bennett
Be neat if you could network your CDTV unit to your main Amiga, too!
I'm hoping you *can*. <grin> One thing which bothered me was that the
Genlock wasn't built in, but rather an option. (Or at least, that's what
the press implied…) It kinda limits applications in that they have to
mention the Genlock required on the box. Or maybe I'm looking at the idea
wrong…
–>Steve Bennett
Hmmm. I can't think of an application which would normally require a
genlock. Perhaps something which also came with a videotape background?
Nah, that wouldn't work because you can jump around on the disc itself.
Maybe: well, I can think of one item: say someone sold TV Guide on disc
monthly? Then it'd make sense to be able to click your remote and have
today's schedule come up overlaid on top of the normal TV picture.
Remember: one of the main ideas is to provide standalone (no keyboard,
even) interactive discs. Don't think of a computer "application"… more
like an Epcot Center fantasy trip. Or books with action video and
background sound snippets instead of static pictures. Or a Sesame Street
cartoon where clicking on the right object takes you to a side-plot with
more info on that object.
At least, that's the potential if done right. A good disc is going to take
some real artistry in putting it together. In fact, the studios I've
visited have been all filled with 90% artists and writers. Programmers are
actually under the artists' control. I guess this is hard to describe
unless you've seen and used several interactive video discs. But no, I
can't think of a genlock use except to those who expand the system into a
regular computer. At which time the magic disappears, if you ask me ;-).
Sorry, I think I went out on a limb there. I started with CDs after I had
gotten a LaserDisk combo player. I sorta associate CDs with CDVs, and was
thinking that the CDTV player could handle CDVs (which it probably
can't…) and thus could handle short bits of real video which one could
genlock graphics over.
On the other hand, I could see applications which combine a laserdisk
player (which every home electronics buff *should* have by now… There's
no excuse not to anymore, with prices dropped so low…) with the CDTV
deck, and genlocking. I think Commodore has got this in mind themselves,
based on the capabilities of AmigaVision and the fact that they at least
offer the optional genlock on the CDTV unit.
–>Steve Bennett
:::a laserdisk player (which every home electronics buff *should* have by
now… There's no excuse not to anymore, with prices dropped so low…)
I know this probably belongs in CEFORUM, but… I'm tempted to buy a
laserdisc player – the prices _are_ lower and I am a technojunkie – but I
still have a hard time justifying it. There just aren't that many movies
that I care to watch over and over again. Am I missing something? ===Scott
Scott,
Prices aren't as low as they're going to go on laserdisk players; news
is that in Sept. some low-priced models will appear. Up until now, the big
boys weren't willing to invest in quantity models, since market was too
small. Luckily, enough die-hards have inflated the market to that magic
point where the bottom should now drop out. Pioneer and Sony will be joined
by a bunch of others now.
As to justifying it, it's great fun to digitize video off of these
things because the quality's so good. Capturing still frames off VHS makes
me cringe; a still-frame off one of the laser players looks just as good as
it does when played normally. I also have a store locally that rents the
disks out, so the cost of buying them isn't a factor.
Karl
Oh absolutely. There are two (in my case three) reasons to get a laserdisc
player: 1) Quality. The quality output by a laserdisk player is superb.
Far surpasses that of a normal videotape (and few movies are released in
the super vhs/beta formats…) and even cable. Especially good looking on
big screens. 2) Letterboxing. Many films are released on laser with their
original aspect ratio, by putting a black border at the top and bottom.
The better resolution of Laser makes such images clear even if they don't
fill the whole screen, and you see more of the original film. 3) Sound:
Many lasers are released with Digital sound. Try that from a VCR. Also a
lot of them have surround encoding. 4) (okay, there were three general, and
one specific… 🙂 Price of disks. Very often, especially with disks from
Japan (which I get a lot of…), the price of a Laser Disk for a film is
cheaper than the cost of the videotape for the film, for many reasons.
Sometimes you see the same thing with domestic films (Star Wars was a good
example… The LD cost half the Videotape price…) but not too often.
–>Steve Bennett
Interesting. I don't have a CDV player yet. Maybe that's because I have a
good set of cable channels, and I don't rent or buy movies from stores, nor
am I into having the best audio/visual setup.
(At least, not yet <grin>. Some friends have beautiful media rooms and I
must admit that watching a movie on a bigscreen TV with surround sound is
quite an experience)
But yes, if you had a controllable CDV deck upon which you could overlay
gfx with an Amiga (or CDTV unit), then I'm sure some neat apps could be
done.
Again, that might be one reason why Philips postponed consumer CD-I decks
until realtime fullscreen video decoding from disc could be done… which
should mean being able to generate gfx overlays on top of that "real" video
without needing more than the one CD drive.
How much was your LaserDisc unit, and which one did you get, btw? thx – kev
I've fiddled with several LD units for a while now. The only one I own
(and the one I use the most) is my Pioneer CLD-909, which they don't make
anymore. It's a nice unit even if it doesn't play the CDVs. (It *does*
play CDs…) Of course, I've never seen a CDV I wanted to get yet, so…
🙂
Back when I bought it, my unit cost <ahem> a bit over $700. Nowadays you
can get something similar (The 909 plays 8" and 12" LDs, and CDs… Todays
basic combination player also plays CDVs and 8" Laser singles…) for
$400-$500. If you just want to play LDs only, you can probably get a basic
player ("Basic" meaning plays 12" LDs and has both Dolby and Digital
sound…) for under $400, if you shop around.
–>Steve Bennett
BTW, meant to mention that I thought you had analyzed the potential market
areas pretty well. We're all guessing of course… it'll be interesting to
see!
best – kev
Kevin,
I have a bad habit of collecting all kinds of magazines which have lots
of material I don't want to lose but can't find when I need it. I'd kill to
have a relatively cheap periodical guide, though new ones would have to be
produced occasionally. Not a very good multimedia app, but I suspect
reference material will be among the first apps to appear.
If enough people buy these things, I'd think that the Chamber of
Commerce depts in big cities would love to have a format like this to
entice tourists. I've used CIS's Orlando section before, but you can just
FEEL those folks grimacing at the constraints placed on them by a text-only
format. (Gee, no pic of Mickey?)
Karl
Karl – periodical guides are available on cdrom now (our local NCSU library
has a dozen PC's set up with them and printers for searching, for example).
Perhaps you're right: one day we'll see these for sale in all bookstores,
for use as a non-multimedia app in a standalone player.
You're right about chambers of commerce… under DVI at least, one of the
first demos was of a Washington DC tour… opens with a scanning view of
the city from the air, and you click on the area you're interested in. For
example, clicking on the Lincoln Memorial brings up an inside view and the
Gettysburg speech is read to you, etc.
Of course, these things had better be _cheap_ <grin>. I don't think i'd
spend $30 for a disc like this, myself. But then, I'm cheap too ;-).