#grumble, grumble…
26 messages in this thread
Am I just having a bad dream, or has the overall tone of the forum gotten a bit
TENSE over the past month or so? I've seen people jumping all over other
people's opinions and technical mistakes. Granted, there are always a few
idiots who just go crazy. We used to see a lot of good, technical debates and
a occasionally a few flames here and there, but people just seem REALLY uptight
these days.
I think that a check point should be set up at the Autodesk party at Siggraph.
The sysops will scan name tags for familiar people. If they belong to the
forum, they get thrown in the pool to "cool off". Top that of with a couple of
cold drinks to help ease some of the tension around here <ggg>. And then maybe
everyone will realize that we're all in this for the same reasons: we enjoy 3DS
and AniPro, we can all use some help sometimes, many great opportunities arise
here and we always learn something new.
Everyone should take a good look at their words before pressing the -send-
button. Written words often carry a lot more feeling than was ever intended.
I've noticed some of what you're talking about lately, David. My impression is
that possibly some of the sh*t from the outside world seems to be leaking into
the forum. Not surprisingly, considering what's going on out there.
I think that if everyone counted to 10 and then re-read their messages before
sending them, this little world would be a better place.
– G
>>if everyone counted to 10 and then re-read their messages…
One of the reasons I wrote the original note, was that I find myself getting
sucked right in! I've been more frequently hitting <esc> on my reader to
cancel replies. After re-reading them, I realize I would have just added fuel
to the fire! So like you said, count to 10. It really helps take the bite out
of the messages.
It's so common to get caught up in a heated discussion with the forum regulars,
that it's easy to forget that the others who pop in don't know about the
commeraderie that has developed here. I personally tend to take for granted
the quick technical help, free utilities, sample projects and tricks of the
trade that are at our disposal here. I keep reminding myself that nowhere else
in the computer industry can we get help from so many experts, not to mention
the programmers themselves!
David,
I think you and Gary have said it all. What more can I add other than try to
make the most of it. I find myself deleting messages for the same reason, I
don't want to add fuel to the fire. Some times you have to clarify your
position, but that can be done e-mail just as easily. People have to remember
it gets real personal when the argument becomes public.
Take care,
-JE
PMJI, this is directed to everyone, and I realize that perhaps a lot of forum
members may think *_I've_* got a lot of nerve in commenting on this subject,
but I want to state my feelings on this FWIW. Many may think this is a crock of
sh*t coming from me….however, I too have noticed this sort of thing, and for
longer than a month or so. Believe it or not, it is part of the motivation
*_which led_* to me blasting that guy with the offensive message recently. I do
not view this statement as a contradiction either, as it may seem. I've never
seen a message as blantantly offensive as that one, and I did not view it as
being intended for any other purpose than to offend. After observing MANY
messages here over time which (to me) appeared arrogant & insulting &
chastising (even if worded "tactfully"), I had gotten a little worked-up and a
bit disenchanted. However, I never flamed anyone before as I had not previously
seen a message which was outright nasty *AND* not framed within the context of
a interactive discussion, technical question/reply, etc.. So, in my way of
thinking, with all the nastiness I've observed – in this case, my reply was
honest, justified and coming from the same place as the message that guy
posted. Granted, I've been informed it was wrong and "illegal" here due to
using profanity & a personal attack.
Having said that, MOST messages here are not like that one. Most are intended
to express viewpoints, make announcements, offer/receive technical help, just
chit-chat, etc.. Having been informed that I broke the "rules" with my reply
really puzzled me, as the "rules" of the forum are *implied* by what is said
here and how it's said, and if any of that provokes disciplinary action. IMO,
and outside of the framework of an intentional nasty message such as that guy's
& mine, many postings do come off as nasty, offensive, insulting, arrogant,
etc…..and that in *MY* mind constitutes a personal attack. In the context of
the "usual" message motivations here, there is no reason for someone to take
this approach – if your opinion is not backed with strong enough arguments to
stand on their own strength, arrogance & insulting verbage (even if "tactfully"
constructed, as I said) just belittle one's strength of position. And arrogant
responses to perhaps (not always) those with lesser experience, are really
insulting to me – even if not directed to me personally. As I said before, I
personally would rather be told to FO….at least that's brutally honest, and
there's no question as to what level one is playing on. There is no one out
there who hasn't been in a position of lesser experience at one time or the
other, and the mere fact that you may have been doing something longer/better
than others is completely insignificant wrt the broad picture of life on this
planet.
If everyone would take themselves and their knowledge a little less seriously,
I believe a lot of the tension here would diminish. After all, we're ALL going
to just be a clump of rotting organic matter in no time….just fertilizer, no
more – no less. Along with counting to 10 and then reconsidering your message,
try visualizing one's self as that pile of fertilizer, and perhaps
RECOMPOSTING. <- (that's a bad play on words)
WRT using profanity, I think there needs to be some specific guidelines here if
it offends anyone. I was cited for using profanity, but as I recall, what I
said was "friggin'", "nitwit", and "FO". To me, this message & Gary's and MANY
others here contain much more specific examples of profanity. (such as sh*t)
I'm probably going to catch some slack for this posting, but I believe in it's
message.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 <G>
BILL
Please, let's not start another round of recriminations. New more explicit
guidelines for forum behavior and responsibilities are being worked on and will
be published and posted to the forum shortly.
Basically, we want this to be a professional support forum, where people can
ask questions and receive help without fear of personal attacks. One thing that
support people soon realize is that a person with a problem, facing deadlines
or financial ruin will become excited, and may convey that excitement or fear
in very negative terms. However, the proper way to deal with that apparent
hostility is to respond in a calm, clear and professional manner, not by
responding in kind.
Bob, I think you completely missed the "message" in my message. (Hint: it was
not about me or that incident)
BILL
The medium is the message.
– G
Maybe we need a special "Flame" section where people can blast away at each
other and get it out of their systems before returning to the other, more
civilized, sections. A little like taking a shower before entering a private
pool. 😉
– Jack
Good analogy, Jack! I've only been here a couple of weeks, so please correct
me if I'm wrong…I thought we were all ADULTS here. In my experience, the
best way to respond to whiners is not to respond at all.
Regards, Connie
>> In my experience, the best way to respond to whiners is not to respond
>> at all.
I think that's very true. I started this thread with a message about tension
and overall edginess here lately. It's not so much just responses to whiners,
but even in regular conversation, people seem to be really uptight.
People come here sometimes legitimately frustrated about technical problems and
looming deadlines, and their messages may be "colored" by that frustration. I
just hope that those who read and reply remember the last time THEY were in
that situation, and pull their punches. I get so tempted sometimes to jump all
over some messages, but I usually delete them or tone them down a lot before
sending them.
We have had some intense technical debates here that I've filed away because of
all the knowledge imparted during the discussion. Although they tend to be
heated discussions, the "tone" is serious and technical, rather than spiteful
or arrogant.
And that's why we're here right? For good technical support, creative guidance
and artistic inspiration.
– Dave
David, thanks for the response. It makes sense that tensions are high
here…it must be due to the exciting/frantic/schizo nature of this business.
I'm finding this out. Sometimes I wonder if I'm getting too old for this
stuff…but then I remember the really irreplaceable thrill I get from being a
player. I only wish I'd joined CompuServe earlier…I am amazed and delighted
about the level of knowledge/expertise on the Modeling/Animation forums, and I
have learned so much in just the 3 weeks I have been a member, even though
sometimes I feel a bit intimidated.
Regards, Connie
>>…even though sometimes I feel a bit intimidated.
There is certainly a TON of information passing through here. I used to be
completely baffled by all the video technology, but reading about it here again
and again, it really started to sink in. Don't feel intimidated by it though.
Just wave your flag, jump up and down, and say "Hey everybody! Please explain
that again for me" and you'll get some great replies.
David, Thanks for the encouragement! I appreciate it. 🙂
Connie
Constance,
<< and I have learned so much in just the 3 weeks I have been a member, even
though sometimes I feel a bit intimidated. >>
Since you've only been here 3 weeks, you may wish to catch up with the threads
from Feb, Mar, and April. Download and read, if you wish, see FEBTXT.zip,
MARTXT.zip, APRTXT.zip found in the Index and Info section of the library.
jonas[adesk]
Cool! I will do that — thanks!
Connie
Did you _really_ count to 10?
– <G>
>> If everyone would take themselves and their knowledge a little less
>> seriously, I believe a lot of the tension here would diminish
Exactly.
– Dave
David,
Agreed. Everyone's been acting real edgy lately. It's leaking over
into the ACAD forum a bit now, too. Maybe due to that upcoming collision on
Jupiter? And it's a full moon, with Mercury in retrograde (affects
communications and equipment).
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
>>Jupiter…moon…Mercury…
I hadn't thought of that! <thhwapppp! – hand hitting forehead> Thank goodness
it will all be over soon. <ggg>
Hi there I think it's a has to do with money. Some times it seem worthless to
do all this and not get reconized. I'll have to admit I've screwed up in the
past but I have a good excuse. I had an operation on my neck and does'nt feel
too good. My disk was impeeding into my spinal coloum. This can cause problems
with thinking and I mean all around.
I hope thins clear up with the agroness that seem to be lingering through out
the world. May it has to do with everbodys hero getting arrested. O.J. That is
or may sun spots or the earth polarities shifted.
P.s I'll support this software tell the day I die and will probably will still
not make enough money to eat. I being shiped out of calif
To ohio to do some animation for Cad Craft another IPAS developer through
Schreiber. Hopefully this will put food on the table. I was supposed to go
Siggraph and will not be able to make for lak of money.
Bummer was even going to be at Schreibers booth and was looking forward to
talking to the people. Maybe next time.
Grumble, Grumble,
Mike White [SDP]
>> Hi there I think it's a has to do with money. Some times it seem
>> worthless to do all this and not get reconized.
I think that's very true. Everyone here on the forum has made a significant
investment in hardware and software, and is working hard to pay the bills. Just
being active in the forum has a substantial price tag as well! Fortunately, I
use an off-line reader that keeps me to around $50 per month.
It appears that most of us on the forum are here for several reasons: technical
support, great utilities, job leads, new product info and good conversation
with our peers. Because there is a price involved, it does get frustrating
sometimes when we can't get what we need.
You mention recognition, which is something that I believe happens just by
virtue of being here. I have "met" dozens of people here on the forum, without
ever physically seeing or talking to them. It's funny when I hand someone a
business card and they say "Jeez, where have I seen your name before?" Artistic
or creative recognition I believe is a little harder to acheive. I've been
using 3DS since R2, and have finally gotten some local recognition. My demo
stuff has been circulating and word of mouth is getting around, but it has
taken a long time.
I'm finding that my "full-time" committment to 3DS work almost isn't enough for
me to really express myself artistically. I'm really getting sucked into
spending more time doing this stuff, and it's starting to show in quality. I
think doing this work for this long has turned it into a sort of PASSION. It
gets really scary to think that I spend more time some weeks with 3DS than with
my wife and daughter.
It's this very passion that I think adds to the tension here sometimes. I'm
sure everyone posting messages here generally means well, but their passion and
devotion to doing well with 3DS sometimes biases their messages. I started
this thread as a way to vent MY feelings, rather than getting pulled into the
more heated discussions. I've been sooo tempted to speak my opinion in some
threads, but then I back off after thinking about it some more. I hate to
detract from the real value of the forum. Besides, life is too short to waste
on some silly argument.
— Dave
Is'nt That The Truth !
Nice note David.
Tom
>> Nice note David.
Thanks.
Well said.