#Ill Pro/Targa Frame Grab
6 messages in this thread
Hi Mark,
I'd be interersted in hearing your thoughts on the following suggestion.
As you've committed to making Ani-Studio run on NT, how about providing the
facility to allow for Frame-grabbing with framebuffers like the Ill Pro, Vista
and Targa 32 + et al.
It appears that Razor Pro NT will indirectly allow for a similiar capability
with the PAR and PVR systems. But this will require a) a user have either one
of these systems and b) that the video source is already digitized, c)a third
application with which to paint.
The advantage to having the capability in Ani-Studio is that a frame could be
grabbed and painted on directly and then put to disk, or with a system like a
Diaquest frames could be captured, and rotoscoped just like any other sequence
of frames with little or no quality loss.
There is a debate about the necessity to frame grab, as hardware like the
PAR/PVR can stream video in real time to a hard disk whereby it can be
manipulated in a program like RP or Adobe… and painted on through a third
application.
I question the wisdom of not being able to grab frames directly and paint on
them directly and output directly. This has been traditionally a very important
function for framebuffers. is especially useful for titling and overlays which
Ani Studio could easily facilitate.
If one was to question the merit of this suggestion, I would direct their
attention to a product called Alladin which by their definition is: "A high
quality, integrated PC peripheral with a real-time, 3D DVE, switcher, paint
package, character generator, 3D modeling, animation and still store."
A combination of 3DS, Ani Studio and the Ill Pro could provide much of these
same features, and better of course. <G> This wouldn't address the "switcher"
aspect which would probably be off minimal interest to the animator anyway, but
it is quite probable that a third party will develop this capability for NT, in
which case it could be integrated with the rest of the package that I've
outlined.
Matrox has committed to writing drivers for 3DS. I would hope that they
wouldn't require a lot of modification to be used by Ani-Studio, whether or not
Matrox is interested in providing DVE capability to Ani-Studio is an open
question. I also don't know how difficult it would be to provide the "grab"
capability as I assume the drivers for Ill Pro will be for display primarily. I
do know that RP NT plans to provide DVE capability on a software basis.
As I understand it, drivers are also being developed for the Targa as well.
Here again I am uncertain whether "Grab" capability will be provided for.
If one was able to render to a Targa Vista Ill Pro etc. on a seperate monitor
and then with Ani Studio be able to paint directly through the frame buffer
this would be a definite advantage over what capabilities the PAR/PVR solution
can provide. One would need to go into a third program to be able to paint, as
RP does not provide this facility.
This is a traditional technique for 3D Animation creation, which has become
lost as a result of Digital technology like the PAR/PVR which do not allow
direct framebuffer accessing. I think that having this ability is a must in a
production environment where speed is essential. A vtr can be controlled
externally or through software, where a PVR is dependent on a computer platform
which means integrating the software so that RP or Adobe can control the device
and access a third video source to have the same capability…
I hope I've outlined this recommendation fairly clearly. I can see that some
would question this capability with the Advent of digital recorders like the
PAR/PVR, but I would question the limitations of this approach and would wish
that an alternative solution be provided. I think Diaquest might be interested
in this also, as possible Sony would for use with their Laser Disk recorders,
which is a market that Autodesk has in the past supported with 3DS.
This would also give NT an open window for video, which as far as I know is
currently unavailable.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this. I think it would be a
practical alternative to the other approach that is being taken, and Autodesk
has already established a precedence for this capability by having drivers for
the Targa to play back Ani Pro files and for driver support from Diaquest and
Sony for output. This would facilitate the input side… and it would seem a
logical extension to the capabilities Ani Studio has to offer.
Thanks for your time and consideration…
John Ellis
John,
I like what you wrote. One piece of info that you may or may not know is that
D/Vision is going to be shipping by end of Summer a non-linear, on-line DV
editor under NT that is working on the MAX board set (IllPro and Rapid JPEG
cards). This software will be designed to take advantage of the hardware
features available on the MAX set line keyer, multiple frame buffers ..etc. A
combo of that system with AniStud would be along the lines you are talking.
The product is called OnLine.
Ang, President, Dynamic Technologies, Inc.
An Autodesk Systems Center for Multimedia in MD
Hi Ang,
>> The product is called Online… <<
Yes I am aware of the editor, as I was informed of it during its beta program
under the code name Bermuda. The Alladin solution features a "switcher" without
an editor if my understanding is correct, so the D/Vision editor in conjunction
with this suggestion would provide a more complete solution, as D/Vision has
incorporated some "switching" capability in its product On-line. I don't know
how extensive that capability is but as it is a software solution it would seem
that there is really no limit to the kinds of "switching" effects that could be
provided. My understanding is that it is intended to be a device independent
Editor, so that not only will it support the Max et al. but will also support
other DVR's including Truevision's T2K.
So it would seem that there would be support from Matrox, Truevision, Sony,
Diaquest to mention a few for animation graphics as provided for with
Ani-Studio and 3DS working in tandem as outlined. This combination provides for
full 2D/3D animation/graphics capture/compositing/output support and would
compliment any non-linear editing solution in the NT environment. The most
device independent being D/Visions Online system.
I have spoken with Matrox regarding drivers for the Ill Pro and they are
developing a software independent driver as a result of their work with
D/Vision and their "Online" product. So essentially what would be required is
that Ani-Studio have the interface to take advantage of that capability, which
should be device independent allowing for use with other boards including the
T2k, Vista and Targa series, along with new boards as they become available.
3DS will have the ability to output to the framebuffer as Matrox has already
made a commitment to provide a driver to do that. If 3DS could share the
framebuffer with Ani-Studio so that one could switch back and forth between the
two applications without clearing the framebuffer this opens up some
possibilities that have only been available through DOS with other
framebuffers.
The ability to input through AS with frame grabbing or live video and
overlaying titling in real time (which should be possible with Ill Pro) would
be a very powerful extension of its present capabilities. Coupling that with a
render control feature to activate 3DS for rendering so that renderings could
be combined with a control interface to implement "frame grabs" through either
a Sony, Matrox, Abekas, Accom, DPS or Diaquest etc. protocol, would extend the
capabilities even further, as NT has the stability to make it all feasible.
I would expect that those device drivers would naturally be provided for by
those manufactures in support of this and similiar capabilities such as direct
output from 3DS, which would enhance the value of their product.
I don't know if or how NT has implemented support for this kind of device
independence but it should be a high priority. They may be relying on device
specific applications which is going to be an impediment to faster development
in support of the graphics community, which many expect to be a large segment
of NT's potential market. I hope this is not the case but either way Autodesk
stands to gain as it is uniquely positioned to take advantage of the hardware
that is presently available.
Thanks for your feedback, I trust that your insight and opinion will be taken
into consideration. Alot of additional potential here with minimal
implementation cost. NT will be opened up sooner or later to these
capabilities and 3DS / Ani Studio are posed to take advantage of this potential
now, which will result in Autodesk maintaining and expanding their lead
position with the best integrated solution. Very promising indeed.
John
John, I've copied Mark Gerhard on email with your (and Angelo's) message, in
case he doesn't get a chance to get up here before the messages scroll.
>> I've copied Mark Gerhard on email with your (and Angelo's) message… <<
I appreciate that Nik, its pretty much a house of cards, and the foundation
just got pulled out from under… so I'd say whatever makes the most sense…
now may not be a good time… though the port to NT and the effort in that
regard would have made the timing good…
Thanks much,
John
Hi Nik,
Just as a follow up and FYI, this area is being heavily invested in the Imaging
community, so my perspective/experience/instincts (?) tells me that while the
need is a certainty, it may be that it comes to us through the back door as it
were…
For instance there are several companies including Matrox who offer
framegrabbing capability in real-time, PCI based and supported in NT.
(Including Matrox which has two boards the Meteor and the Comet both with
applications software ie hi-level "C" for development.)
In addition companies like TRW offer video arrays capable of handling 200mb a
second… (pretty impressive), so while it may not be the video/animations
market which drives the engine… we'll certainly be taking advantage of it one
way or another…
If Mark needs some background information on current developments along these
lines, a good source for technical imaging and applications is Advanced Imaging
a division of PTN…
An interesting note to all this is that in the case of the Comet for example,
it relies on the SVGA card already in your system… so no new drivers would
have to be supported for say 3DS or Ani Studio. NT drivers would address the
frame capture directly and pass them through whatever SVGA adapter is
available… this would seem to simplify things as video could be captured
directly with system RAM and Ani-Studio either through DLL or directly could
utilise it in some fashion… I don't know what the challenges are with this
but there are other NT applications which are addressing capture in this
fashion…
So while the Ill Pro and the Targa may be a dead issue, newer emerging
technologies based on PCI will certainly take advantage of the facility, and it
seems to me Ani Studio is in a uniquely good position to capitalize on this
capability….
Thanks,
John